Interview with NJ Divorce Attorney John Nachlinger

Hey, how are you?

I’m doing good, sir. How are you?

Not bad. We were supposed to have a nice sunny day and a nasty thunderstorm is coming through. Right now. So hopefully everything is good. We had one the other day that knocked out the power for four hours.

Well, that’s not good.

No, no. I know you’re in Florida, right? You guys are used to these thunderstorms all the time. We’re not used to them in New Jersey and our infrastructure can’t handle it always.

yeah yeah in florida at least at least where i am they’ve put most everything deep underground so we don’t have the toppling power poles and the line snap and that stuff um which is nice because yeah when that when that goes you’re just sort of cut out from the real world

oh yeah oh yeah yeah well i’m from so i’m sort of used to it but you know still

yeah Yeah, I had read that on your bio that you grew up in Texas. So you’re in New Jersey. You’re an attorney and also a mediator in New Jersey, right? But you grew up in Texas, went to Texas A&M. So where in Texas did you grow up? Houston. Oh, Houston. Okay. I’ve got family there. I’ve got family in Houston and then also in Dallas-Fort Worth area. Oh, that’s nice. Yeah, I…

I have a live family everywhere. I’m actually, most of my family live in the Texas Panhandle. So they’re mostly cattle ranchers and people that are not close to being attorneys. Let’s put it that way.

Yeah. Okay. So a lot of my family, so great-grandparents, cousins, stuff, they’re all up in the Panhandle. Where in the Panhandle are they?

So my parents are from Pampa. Okay.

Okay.

which is kind of about an hour northeast of Amarillo. So I was born in Amarillo. I lived there for very, very early years. But most of them are along the Oklahoma, Texas border. They have huge cattle ranches. I like to say it’s very Beverly Hillbillies. Yeah,

yeah. Yeah, so we’ve got family in Lubbock. And then my great grandparents, they were farmers. They were in a little town called Olten. Yeah, and so we used to spend our summers there with them when we were kids. It was fun.

Yeah, no, no. My entire family went to Texas Tech. I was the first one to break out of that mall and go to that. And I went to Baylor, and then I went to A&M. But yeah, I’m very familiar with Lubbock and whenever the wind shifts, you smell manure and that’s great. It’s a great. So

much different than New Jersey. So what drew you to being an attorney and then how did you get to New Jersey?

So my neighbor growing up was an attorney and he went to Seton Hall in New Jersey. And I, I don’t know, I knew I wanted to get out of Texas. So I applied everywhere and I didn’t get into NYU and Columbia as I had hoped. And Seton Hall was right across the river and they gave me a full ride. So I was like, let’s go. Yeah. So that’s how I got here. I thought I was going to be in New York City. I thought that’s where life was going to take me. But then I clerked for a judge in New Jersey. And then I started working in divorce and family law. Not what I set out to do ever. And then I kind of got just sucked into it. And then I started doing mediation about probably 12 or 13 years ago. So I was about… I was about 12 years into practicing and I decided litigation wasn’t for me. So my firm, I have attorneys that litigate and I take on the mediation. I do a mediate probably, I’d say on average, I do about three to four mediations a week, something like that. And I love it. I absolutely love it. The feeling of getting an entire divorce done in like three or four hours for people, makes me just so happy, just so happy. I know how much I just saved them in terms of time, aggravation, emotional distraughtness and money. I mean, it’s like great. Right.

So let me ask you this as a mediator in New Jersey. So do they have a, is it an appointment? Is it a certification process? Is it a licensing? What do they do for like, hey, John wants to become a mediator. What do you have to do for your mediation? Is it a certification? What do they do with that

in New Jersey? It’s not certification. You don’t have to have any credentials to be a mediator here at all. None.

Wow.

no i mean none i mean we have you could be you could just put out a shingle and say i want to be i’m a mediator now and that’s sufficient i mean it’s like i guess it becomes a little bit more gray um when you start i mean as a meteor you can’t give legal advice but when you start doing anything that’s remotely legal in nature um you might start to you know run up against unauthorized practice of law type of arguments. I could see that happening, but I tell everyone the same thing. You really need an attorney as a mediator to make sure you don’t miss anything, make sure you’ve got someone guiding you to make sure you dot all your I’s, cross all your T’s. And I draft settlement agreements. I know this is a big, huge-

I know it’s a huge, huge thing, right?

No, but I draft them. I draft them because I’ve The point is to save people money. If I’m just going to draft an MOU that they’re going to have to take to attorneys to then spend thousands of dollars spiking about a settlement agreement, I didn’t really accomplish my goal. And I figure if I draft the settlement agreement, I tell them, go see an attorney before you sign it, and they choose not to, I’ve done what I need to do to… And I’ve learned how to draft them. I’m sure if you do this, you probably have too. I mean, I learned how to draft them without… without making them, I’m making them as neutral as possible. The language is neutral. I don’t add anything extra. I just say exactly what we agreed to, but I make sure it’s sufficiently clear, adding in detail where necessary to make sure it’s sufficiently clear. Yeah, so, and then we get them divorced. Like after they sign the agreement, we get them divorced. We do conflict waivers and we just go ahead. Cause that’s, I mean, once they have a signed agreement, I mean, it’s paperwork basically, so.

it’s a contract that now just needs to be submitted to the court so they can have a stamp and it’s now an approved court order exactly

exactly contested not everyone here agrees with me and um and uh we we started doing a flat fee program all kinds of different fees and the attorneys here are losing their minds at me right now but i’m like what because we’re saving people money and we’re, you know, they’re not putting them through that ringer. I don’t know how much the average divorce is in Florida, but in New Jersey, it’s around 15 to $16,000 a person. That’s about what it is. And I mean, come on. the family shouldn’t be spending $30,000 for most divorces. Come on, it’s ridiculous.

Yeah, and it is that here in Florida. I mean, they said the average is about 80 to 20. So yeah, it’s within that realm. Now in Florida, to become a mediator, there is a Florida Supreme Court certification course. So with county and civil mediation, it’s a 20-hour course. And then you’ve got to do a mentor mentorship. So it’s done like on a point system. So you have to hit so many points. So like, you know, if you’re an attorney, you get, if you get so many points, if you’ve got a master’s degree, you know, if you speak another language, second language, you get points. And so all of that goes towards your points, but you still have to do a mentorship, which is good. And then once you get your, once you do the certification course, once you then do your mentorship, then you can fill out, you know, you can submit your application. Fine. Now you’re ready to start. For then family mediation dependency mediation appellate mediation circuit certification mediation those are all 40 hour courses and then you again it’s all on a point system you get your mentorship done and then you can start what i find is that it’s almost impossible to do family mediation without understanding the law. And just like you said, like a lot of people are like, I’m going to hang a shingle and yeah, I’m a mediator. Okay. Do you even know how to read a statute? Do you know what the law even is? And in Florida, a lot of family mediators come from either the legal world or the mental health world. And Sometimes, and this is something I think you’ve sort of alluded to it because you said you were an attorney, then you’re not really wanting to litigate and you really like the idea of mediation. I have found like a lot of, I work with a lot of attorney mediators where they’re an attorney, but they dabble in mediation. And sometimes that switch from advocacy to neutrality is a difficult switch. Like, did you find that in your, you know, when you were starting to do the transition or were you just like, I don’t like this advocacy trial approach? you know i really like the neutrality how did how did you resolve that

but what’s what’s interesting about that question is i do think that as an attorney you’re either built to be a mediator or you’re not because um it’s very similar why i don’t think retired judges make particularly good mediators um that is so

true

well i mean once you once you’re like you’re advocating or once you’re like used to making a decision it’s hard to come in completely neutral i always i have the story of this retired judge a few years ago who the night before mediation on one of my cases he sent a court case he faxed it to both of us so it was probably a while ago i forget when but and he hadn’t annotated it and the way he annotated it was clear that he didn’t agree with my position and this was before we even showed up to do mediation And I was like, that was the last time I ever used a retired judge. But when you go to attorneys, it’s the same thing. I have always been compromise-minded. I always tell people I’m a professional problem solver over being an attorney. I’ve done that since the first day I practiced. I hate going to court. I mean, I’m fine going. It’s just more… you know, you’re, you’re dealing with judges who are overworked. They don’t really read everything. They don’t fully understand everything on how it is in Florida. They don’t always understand the law here because a lot of them came from like real estate or corporate or government or somewhere where they didn’t deal with divorce and family law.

Sure.

They didn’t deal with the dynamics of our cases, which is just as important as the law itself. And then, so for me, it was pretty easy because since day one, I’ve always been a big proponent of mediation. 20 years ago, I was trying to convince people to go to mediation and not file complaints for divorce. But people are doing that more now than they did 20 years ago. But for me, it was really easy because I hate fighting, but I love helping people resolve their problems. So whenever I started to mediate… We do have a program in New Jersey where you can get a certification for mediation, but what it’s for here is we have a mediation program through the court system that’s part of a divorce that you have to do. So to get on the rosters to do that mediation, you have to go through a 40-hour course and mentorship. But you don’t have to go through that if you don’t care about being appointed by the court. If you just want to mediate for people, you can just, anyone can do it. So for me, it wasn’t hard because I already, you know, I already felt that way. I already felt like that was the best way to proceed. I mean, I’m, I’m still, to this day, I don’t handle a lot of non mediation cases, but I do do some, if the attorneys in my firm are like a little overextended and I try to help out first thing I still do is pick up the phone and call the other attorney and be like, okay, what do we need to do? So this, Case doesn’t blow up so that we can keep it on track and we get these people divorced quickly. And it’s still amazing to me. Only about a third of my adversaries, you know, actually work with me to do that. Most of them are like, well, you know, we need to do full discovery. We need to do this and we need to do that. I’m like, they’re W-2 employees. They’ve been married for four years. We do not need four years of bank statements. Like, what are you talking about? This is dumb. So it wasn’t hard for me, but a lot of attorneys that mediate, have a hard time mediating but they think they need to now because that’s that’s the movement if we’re going to more and more to adr so everyone thinks they have to mediate well it’s it’s just like it’s just like being a it’s just like being a litigation attorney If you’re not good in trial, if you’re not good with rules of evidence, you can’t multitask and listen to testimony while looking at something. If that’s not you, then don’t do it. You’re going to screw up someone’s case. Same thing goes for mediation. You can screw up more cases by not knowing how to mediate than you can any other way. Because the second you say one thing to one party that tips the scale, you might have just done damage to the case that’s hard to reverse.

Right, right. So as a mediator, how do you prep for mediation? How do you prepare for the mediation?

So there’s two kinds of mediation that I do, and I prep a little bit different. The first one is pro se people coming in at the very beginning. They don’t have attorneys. They hire us together just to do their mediation. It’s like we have a package. It’s a flat fee package. So those people, I… don’t usually happen to give me anything in advance at all. Like I, because I don’t want, I want to, since they’re already on good terms, they’ve already come in, they’re already, you know, willing to sort of cooperate. I don’t want either one of them to accidentally say something or submit something that, that would upset the other person before we can get started. So with those people, I have them, I give them a list of things to have available so they don’t have to look like, you know, like their pay stubs and their W-2s. And I do tell them, like, listen, if you guys are comfortable, you know, start talking about really easy things, like maybe holiday schedules for the kids or things like that. And then, so for them, I just, you know, first mediation session, I spend the first 20 minutes getting my biographical information really quick, and then I dive right in. Now, if there’s an attorney involved, I absolutely want them to submit something to me in advance, just telling me what their position is. Okay. and explain to me sort of why that’s their position. But the reason I do that is not so I can be super prepared for mediation, because I’m sure you probably feel this way. I’ve done, I mean, at this point, we’re well, well north of 2,000 divorces at this point. So I’m there’s nothing that anyone can possibly say to me that I haven’t already seen before. So it’s kind of like, you know, it’s kind of like, I feel like it’s almost like being an ER doctor. Like, I mean, whatever you bring me anything, I’ll figure it out really quickly. I don’t need to prepare for hours and hours. And I get really concerned when mediators You know, I see on their billing that they spent three hours preparing for mediation. I’m like, but you’re not

a judge. There’s nothing to prepare for.

No, like, you don’t even know, like, what the real issues are. Like, you really don’t know. And that’s why I hate attorneys being involved in mediation because they’re advocates. They’re giving you their position. But I really want to know, like, no, okay, screw your position. I don’t care what your position is. What do we need to do to help these people get resolved? What’s the end goal? I know. Do I need to take one of them into a breakout room and literally tell them, you’re never getting what you want? You’re never getting it. It’s never happening. So do you want to actually get this resolved? Or do you want me just to tell them, you guys are just going to trial and go give your attorney $50,000 right now? Is that what I need to tell your client? Or where are we? That’s why attorneys muck it all up. And as an attorney, I sometimes laugh when I say that, but it’s true. We muck it all up. And the people that come in without attorneys, our flat fee program is three hours of mediation. So it’s built in mediation. If you need more than just hourly after that, I’d say two thirds, easily two thirds of everyone comes in. I get it done in that timeframe because It’s interesting. It’s like everyone has the same motivation. The people want to save money by not going beyond those guidelines. And they’re motivated. So they both make good decisions based upon cost benefit as opposed to fighting. And most of the time, they don’t have the emotions involved. Although, I mean, people fight all the time on mediation.

Sure.

I’m used to being an adult daycare to some extent. That’s fine. Right. That’s fine. I’m sure a mediations, you do the same thing. At some point I’ll let them fight for a second and then I’m just like, I’ll do whatever. I’m just like, no, we’re done. So not a lot of prep, just very, I just want everyone to come in open-minded. So the less they see in advance, the better from the other person.

Yeah, so for me, I love mediation because for me, I’ve said forever, I love it because there’s no prep and then there’s no homework. like you’re going in with nothing and you’re leaving and when you’re done you’re done with or without a resolution when you’re done you’re done um which which i like and and just just like you i mean i do pro se i do you know you know as long as well as with attorneys and um you know, with the pro se, I always, you know, pro se, they’ll be like, you know, do I need, you know, should I talk about things before? Should I not? Like, you know, and I always tell, I always tell the same thing. I said, I said, what is, what is most important? Number one is not whether or not you communicate, it’s how you communicate. So communication’s great. Just, just watch how you communicate. But number two, at the end of your communication, make sure that you clarify whether or not Matthew and John had a conversation or whether Matthew and John have an agreement. Because you and I could have a conversation and you walk away going, wow, that was a great time with Matthew. I really learned a lot and I was able to express my opinion and we had a good conversation. I could walk away going, I have an agreement with John. Then they come to mediation and it’s like, well, we’ve agreed. It’s like, no, we didn’t. It’s like, yeah, remember when we met and we were talking? It’s like, yeah, we had a conversation. So I always warn everybody. Make sure that at the end of whatever you’re discussing, make sure that you understand whether or not you have come to an agreement or it’s just a conversation. Otherwise, that can cause problems when we get to mediation. So be careful about how you communicate and then also clarify what is it that you’re doing.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I hear that all the time. You know, we’ve already agreed. And then the other person’s like, no, we didn’t. We were talking about that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that’s why I really don’t want them to talk too much. I mean, I figure they’re hiring me to do the heavy lifting, and I’m willing to do it. I’m happy to do it. But it’s easier when you have someone guiding you. All right, here’s what we’re going to deal with first. Like, I don’t know how you are, but I always deal with children first. I don’t even talk about money until I make sure that the parenting plan and the custody schedule, everything looks good. Then we start talking about money. Yeah.

Yeah, we actually go with what we, I don’t know if it’s a Florida thing, I don’t know where it came from, but we go in the PEACE acronym, P-E-A-C-E. So parenting, then equitable distribution, then alimony, then child support, and then everything else. Because, you know, as you know, Equitable distribution, well, it could be based on like, what are we doing with the house? Depends on maybe what we’re doing in the parenting. And then alimony, well, alimony has a look back to equitable distribution and parental responsibility. Child support looks back at then the parenting plan. So we go in that order because they have look backs, but also it seems to build momentum and consensus, which, and then of course, we’re focusing on the most important thing because, you know, as, as you had mentioned with the, you know, with, with the courts, the judges, the judges, a lot of times rely on the attorneys for direction. It’s like, well, so you know how like give me case law uh what you don’t know the case like you want me to give it to you to give you direction and so and they don’t want to deal with the kid issues deal with equitable distribution if you know if you’re an equitable distribution state or community property fine it is what it is we’re done it’s those little intricacies with family that they’re like yeah i don’t want to get involved in that i will if i have to but i don’t want to and so they they really rely on the mediators to do your best and try to get through this because we don’t want to get involved. We will if we have to.

Well, I mean, the good thing about most people that come in right off the bat for mediation is they almost always, when it comes to those issues in terms of alimony and equitable distribution, They almost equal distribution. It’s always one of two things. At least I, this is what I see day in and day out. They either both are agreeing to keep everything that’s in their name or they disagree to split everything 50, 50. So, so I’m with you. It’s really, that’s an easy, easy thing for, to get them to agree to. Um, I mean, sometimes you, sometimes there’s some, some wrangling over the house in terms of how it’s going to be divided, but yeah, that we deal with. Alimony is interesting. Again, it’s one of two things. One is they agree that there’s not going to be alimony, or two, they agree there is going to be alimony, but they have no idea how long. And then they ask me, and I talk to other mediators about this all the time, and I’ve told people, in that circumstance, if they come in and they’re like, okay, listen, we both agree there should be alimony. We have no idea how much it should be, how long it should be. In that circumstance, it’s one of the only times I’ll do this, I will give some ranges. I’ll say, listen, if you were asking me in my 23 years of doing this, what would be an acceptable range for alimony in a case like yours, here it is. Which I know is not all meteors will do that, but I figure if I don’t do that, they’re not going to resolve this. Sure. I mean, I try to get them to give me numbers. I mean, I only do that if I can’t. I’m like, okay, well, what number do you think would be good? And, you know, sometimes they’re like, we just don’t know. Whatever’s fair, whatever you think is fair, John, is fine with us. I’m like, well, that’s not really my role. And it’s

not what it’s based on. Yeah,

but seriously, if that’s the only way to move the needle, and they’re both asking me for it. Right, right. If one of them’s like, no, no, don’t do it, I won’t give them a brain. Sure. them are like please help us then yeah i i’ll give a range because otherwise how are they going to resolve this then you’re going to tell them i mean most meters will be like well you need to go talk to an attorney first again the second you introduce that attorney if it’s not totally necessary. I mean, listen, there’s situations that are necessary. If someone has a closely held corporation, or if there’s MSUs that I don’t really have enough information to talk about, or if there’s hidden money somewhere, there’s situations where I’ll send people to attorneys and say, okay, you guys can come back. This doesn’t mean it’s over. If it’s like alimony, we all know if you’re the payor, you’re going to be given, you know, rosy picture by an attorney if you’re the one getting alimony you’ll be told here’s the maximum amount you’re going to get sure how’s that help at an early stage mediation intervention it’s not going to help it’s just going to be yeah okay fine you’re told the max number you’re told the the lowest number right i just give them a range that’s kind of like middle of the ground you know kind of the median of what we have like rules of thumb here they’re not based on Not true, but we have rules of thumb that our appellate court says you’re not allowed to use, but we all use them. Sure. Otherwise, it’s hard to resolve cases. Yeah.

We had… Same thing like rules of thumb until 2023. And in 2023, just two years ago, we now have an exact calculator just like child support. And so we take the income, we put in the date of marriage, the date of filing, and it spits out the maximum duration, the maximum amount. But you’ve got to get through the statute, which talks about, okay, first, you’ve got to get through need and ability. If you can prove need and ability, then you’ve got 13 factors. If If you can get through the 13 factors, then you have the calculator. The problem is, just like you said, like, you know, a lot of attorneys, they’ll jump right to the calculator with the client and go, well, this is the maximum amount or this is your maximum exposure. The problem is, okay, have you gone through need and ability? Have you gone through the 13 factors? And the way, John, it’s funny, the way that I’ve equated to people is, okay, so fine. You want to go to a sports game. So you buy a ticket for a seat. It doesn’t mean you’re getting in. Like, you first have to pay for your parking. You’ve got to get through the parking lot. There’s your need versus ability analysis. Then you’ve got to get through security. That’s all your 13 factors. If you can get into the parking lot and get through security, now you can go sit in your seat. And so, but at least, I mean, I’ve been doing this for 18 years. And… And up until 2023, I always equated it to, I said, this is like, we’re going to go to Costco and we’re going to clear it out and we’re going to put a dartboard on one wall and we’re going to blindfold you and twirl you around. Okay, throw your dart. Let’s see if you can hit something. And because it was a total shot in the dark, we’re like, well, maybe sort of kind of, we had our rules of thumb, but it wasn’t until 23 that we We finally got a calculator. So in Florida, actually, and things really got real easy in family law in 2023, because in Florida for parenting, there’s a rebuttable presumption of 50-50. Okay, and if you don’t like it, there’s 20 factors you can go through, and if you can prove up all 20, and if the judge can make specific written findings of all 20, maybe you can deviate from 50-50. Unless, of course, it’s not logistic. Like, okay, John lives in New Jersey, and, you know, your spouse then lives in Georgia. Okay, well, then, no, you can’t do 50-50, right? Like, logistics. Then when you go to actual distribution, date of marriage, date of filing is 50-50. Okay, that’s sort of simple. And then alimony, we now have a calculator. And then child support, we have a calculator. And then usually attorney’s fees, well, that’s the same analysis as alimony. So if you can get through need and ability, then maybe you get fees. So, you know, a lot of the times the attorneys and as a mediator, I tell people, I say, look, If you can’t figure this out, this is really easy for the court. Really, really, really easy. 50-50, 50-50. Child support is what it is. Alimony, that’s your burden of proof to prove up. Or what do you want to do? What do you want to do? You can do anything you want. Ignore me. Ignore the law. Ignore the statute. What do you want to do? And so a lot of times, especially like with pro se, it’s like, well… Just like you said, we want to sell everything. We want to split everything. But I mean, like, how do we do this and how do we do that? And so it’s almost like we as mediators, we reverse engineer it. We’re like, tell me the end game. OK, now it’s easier to say I’m going to get from I’m going to get from New Jersey to New York City. OK, fine. But if I said, OK, well. John, I’m in New Jersey. How do we get to New York? Man, we could be sitting all day long arguing what’s the best path to get there, right? Who cares? We’re going to be in New York City. Reverse engineer it.

Yeah. No, it’s absolutely, that’s how you have to do it. And I’m kind of jealous that you guys have so many like the alimony calculator. You’ve also got the presumption, revelable presumption of 50-50 on custody because we don’t have any of those things. And it’s funny, there’s been, there was a movement to try to do that with alimony because some others up here have it. Like I know Massachusetts. Massachusetts, yeah. We

actually modeled Massachusetts. I actually, a couple of years ago, Florida’s been trying to get an alimony calculator since, I think 2016, I think is when I remember it. The problem though, John, was they kept trying to bundle an alimony reform with parenting in one bill. Well, then they’re trying to add a retroactivity to alimony, which then is unconstitutional. So they veto it, but then you lose the 50-50 timesharing. And they kept trying this with different governors and different things. And so actually there was an attorney, his name’s Matthew up in Massachusetts. I interviewed him years ago and said, okay, how did you do it? He was the one that spearheaded it. I was like, how did you do it? So he was explaining to me how, and that’s basically then, and Florida was modeling how Massachusetts had done it. But they finally, in 2023, was the first time since I think 2016 that they finally separated the bills and did a parenting bill and an alimony bill. And they both passed. And it’s like, well done. Stop throwing money and kids that have nothing to do with anything into one bill and trying to get it passed. But we’ve only had that for about

two years. I’m jealous. I mean, we tried to in New Jersey. It went back and forth. The Bar Association, the family law section was against a calculator. So

was ours.

That actually harkens back to what I’ve already said, which is… They want to fight. Yeah, they want more data points to fight about.

Yeah.

But so our reforms were… surface level like we there was there’s now a cap on the duration of alimony for any marriage under 20 years there used to never be yeah people were married for 13 years paying lifetime alimony it was absurd um you know we have more the statute like there’s actually a statute now for cohabitation before it was just case law

okay

you know that sort of stuff so it really made it a little bit better but it still it still isn’t great and then of course Everyone’s still struggling since the last tax bill got rid of the deductibility of alimony. That really impacted a lot of what we were already doing here. I still think people are struggling over that. They still don’t really want to take into account the tax impact of net incomes because we were so used to dealing with gross incomes. I still hear people all the time using gross incomes and taking some percentage. I’m like, but you can’t do that like that doesn’t that’s not real that’s not reality reality is how much money you have in your pocket after taxes paid so there is there’s just so much that we still have to fight about all the time but what i find very interesting and probably what no one will ever tell most people is that the wealthiest clients have a lot of them have the easiest divorce processes because they understand, I mean, they might have a lot more to go through. It might take longer, but they understand that like, you know, most of them understand that these big cases that go crazy do nothing for wealth preservation. Like they do nothing for it. And on the flip side, the people with the least, I’ve seen fight the most. And I know they’re fighting over fewer things, but I’m sure you have stories like this. I mean, I’ve had stories where people spent thousands of dollars fighting over things like crockpots and fishing poles and Ikea furniture and, you know, a chest that no one even knows where it’s from or even no one even knows why they want it. They just want it. Then they’re fighting over all these things. And then I mediate cases for people all the time that are have a ton of money and still want to do a flat fee to mediation process you’re like well how could you have millions and millions of dollars of assets and still want to and be doing this flat fee process it’s because they’re smart they’re realizing that you know i we don’t need all of this this nonsense we already know kind of what we want we just need someone to kind of like organize it and put it together for us so i just i find very interesting um i’m not sure if you hear this a lot but people will say why mediation’s not really for us because we have too much stuff and i’m like no mediation’s just can can you act like adults and sit in the same room together if you guys can do that you don’t you can hate each other i don’t care if i do put you in separate breakout rooms that’s fine as long as you’re there with the common goal to get this done we can do it doesn’t matter whether you have a lot a little or anywhere in between We just need that common state of mind. Otherwise, you can just go down the regular process and spend 12 to 18 months and $30,000, $40,000, $50,000 fighting over nothing because attorneys will fight over nothing.

Yeah, yeah. When I first started mediation, I started, I wanted to do family, but I said, well, before I start figuring out this whole mediation thing with, you know, people’s lives, their home, their retirement, their kids, let me start with, you know, something that where I can’t screw it up too bad, right? So I started with county civil. I’m like, all right, under 15,000. All right, fine. And what I found, and just like what you’re saying, is I found that county civil was harder than family because there they were fighting for principle they were fighting for their last dime they’re fighting for cause whereas in family look somebody’s always everyone’s getting something so okay let’s just divvy it up and everyone’s getting something but you know And so, you know, looking at that, okay, do they have a little, do they have a lot? Look, when they had more family than they did in County Civil, it was actually easier because everyone was getting something. Did you guys have, or have you heard of collaborative divorce?

Yeah, I mean, that’s a relatively big thing. Sort of a new thing. But it’s very like enclave in New Jersey though. There’s just like, there’s little enclaves of attorneys that do it. And they only work with each other. And I’ve seen collaborative cases be as expensive and complex as a regular case. So I have several friends that really like the collaborative approach and I really push back on them a lot. And I’m like, Not every case needs, you know, six, seven people involved to get an agreement. I mean, why? And they’re like, well, you know, it creates this atmosphere. I’m like, but mediation can create that atmosphere. Like, if they really want to resolve it early on, why not just go to a mediator? Okay, fine, bring your attorneys. I don’t really like it, but bring your attorneys around. But you don’t need a financial coach and a parenting coach and this, that. Why? And a therapist. much.

Well, and exactly to your point that you had made, the reason why I’m asking you that is because what I have experienced, and it’s the same exactly that you’re describing where, yeah, there’s a certain section of attorneys that use it. They even now have, oh, get trained as a collaborative divorce mediator. I’m like, because it’s different? Like, really? And so, yeah, they have that. But what’s interesting is The people that I have come across in mediation that possibly could actually benefit from having an accountant, having a therapist, having a life coach or whatnot, part of the whole process, well, they couldn’t possibly afford one. So, okay, fine. Now, On the flip side, just like you were describing, those people that actually have the money to pay their attorneys and the mediator and two accountants and fine, we’ll each have our therapists there, fine. They’re not stupid enough to waste their money on all the professionals. So I still have yet to figure out how that’s going to work. Mediation works with a trained mediator that can look and say, okay, look, I know how to read a statute. I know how to write an agreement. I know what the law says for equitable distribution. Let’s run a child support number. Let’s draft a parenting plan. Like, yeah, I do that all day, every day with no counsel because because I know how to do those things and I can lead right through the entire process, just like you’re describing. I draft everything. I’ve worked with, I think, 876 attorneys as of the 1st of June. So a lot of attorneys through the years. There have been two attorneys that were very, how do I say, possessive with the agreement. They draft their agreements. So as a mediator, I’m like, so whenever I would see their name, I’m like, I just have to show up and talk. I don’t have to do anything today. I’m like, okay, it’s going to be sort of an easy day because I’m not having to, you know, help them negotiate and draft and do everything. But for me in Florida, I’ve created a name for myself because I do draft. The attorneys are like, you’re going to drift. And I’m like, yeah, like at the end of mediation, we’re done. This is not going to continue on. You’re not going to have to keep paying. You’re not going to have to keep talking with counsel. This is not going to be dragged on. Like we can be done. And I love, just like you had said in the beginning, I love having that sense of closure and completion, you know, and the parties to be able to be able to then move into a a co-parenting atmosphere, or if they don’t have kids, they can go their separate way. That’s amazing. Saving them, saving them tons of money, lots of time, lots of heartache, which not just affects each of them, but affects their coworkers because they go to, you know, they go to work and talk smack about their attorney, the mediator, the other side, you know. it impacts the family and it definitely impacts their ability to be a parent if there’s kids involved.

Oh, it absolutely does. And, you know, it’s like to tell people all the time, your kids do not care about your legal victory. So like they’re not, they’re not going to remember who got the better custody schedule. They’re just going to remember if, you know, their parents are going to, are able to sit close to each other at their graduation. Like, and I think people like whenever you start to, cooperated at the very beginning. It just sets up the framework for you to be able to do that forever. And, but this is where, again, this is where attorneys really can be a problem because you’ve got someone who’s advocating and pushing things as opposed to just, you know, just coming there being like, listen, I just want to be fair. I just want to get this done. And I know some people think that mediation, like, like some people feel like they give up power and they come to mediation. But it’s- You actually gain power. You gain so much because you’re controlling the outcome.

Yeah,

you’re in charge. You’re in charge. Not only the outcome, but you’re controlling the cost. I mean, that to me is so important. It’s kind of like- it’s like going to buy a car. Like, you know how much the car costs. I mean, you can negotiate a little bit, but here’s how much the car costs. Imagine if like you just went in and you had no idea how much the car was going to cost. And oh, well, if you want this, okay, we’re going to, you know, oh, you want, you want rear view mirrors. Okay. We’re going to add this and add that. I mean, give me a break. And that’s what divorce is kind of like. It’s like, you start with what most people charge, like a $5,000 retainer or something like that, or 7,500. Yep. Most people don’t. don’t understand that that is the first of probably three or four payments you are going to make during your divorce. Whereas in a flat fee, that can be your entire cost. And it’s just one of these things where I don’t think there’s enough education, and that’s why I love having this kind of conversation with people like you, there’s not enough education out there that you can do this at the very beginning. You don’t have to go retain an attorney. You don’t have to go file something in the court. Forget what you see on TV and all these movies and everything. You can go to mediation at the very beginning without attorneys and see if you can get it done. And the number of people that call our office looking for an attorney, and then my sales team will talk to them and be like, no, you don’t You don’t have to hire us if you and your spouse are close already. You guys can just do mediation. It’s like, Eureka, what? Yeah, it’s refreshing. They have no idea. And that to me is, I think, I mean, the legal community probably doesn’t want this because, again, it impacts the bottom line. But I think the more that we talk about it and the more that people out in the world understand that this is an option, I think the better divorce is going to become possible. for everybody. It’s just gonna become a better process. I mean, it’s not happy, it’s divorce, but it’s gonna make the best of a bad situation. Yeah,

it can be

civil.

So in Florida, so John, you’ll like this. In Florida, we have the Collaborative Law Process Act, which is part of the statute, but then then you’ve got the judicial rules, right? And so in most of the counties in Florida, in order to get a date, so you can file your petition for disillusion with marriage, but before the court will give you a date for whether it’s temporary relief, whether it’s, you know, hey, we’re going to set you for trial, you are required to attend mediation with or without your attorney at least once. You have to go. If you can go and if you can settle, game over. Awesome. If you can’t, then fine, as a mediator, you know, I’ll file a mediation conference report saying, hey, impasse. So then you’ll get your date. But here’s the catch. 10 days prior to your date, you’re ordered to go back to mediation again and try one last time before you enter into a courtroom. I love this. Which is awesome. Now, I’ve had this many a times. Depending on the issue, the judge may or may not figure it out in a trial. They may order them back to mediation now with explicit instructions. And I’ve had that. Where they came to me, Couldn’t figure it out. They went then and got their date 10 days prior. They had to come back. They came back, still same position. And we’re talking like nine months and still the same position. They go to the court. The court goes, no, go back to mediation. And for example, they’re arguing over time sharing, right? Judge goes, no, go back to mediation, create a 50-50 time sharing schedule. I don’t care which one. I’m not figuring out your holidays. I’m not figuring out where you’re going to do your exchange or what time you’re talking to the kids. You figure it out. But it’s going to be shared parental. It’s 50-50. Give them the bullet points of a parenting plan, right? And then say, get out.

And

So, I mean, I come in at all different stages. Now, here’s the cool thing. So, one of the latest statistics we have, which was just before COVID, 2018, 2019, okay? So, in the state of Florida, you know how many cases were filed? And everything has to go to mediation. We’re talking, I mean, this is, you know, small claims, circuits, civil, family, dependency, everything’s got to go to mediation. So, you know how many cases were filed in a two-year period? Just under $4 million.

Oh, my God.

In two years. That’s why they call

claims too.

Okay. In everything. Everything, right? Now, we’re going to move to percentages. So everything’s got to go to mediation. You know what percentage settled in their very first mediation?

If I was to guess, I’d probably say 60% or 70%.

Try 82%.

Oh, there we go. It’s even

higher. 82% settled in their first mediation. So 18% said, no, we can’t figure it out. We’re going to trial. So somewhere between their first mediation and trial. And as you know, as an attorney, that can include a lot of money for depositions, discovery, maybe another mediation, you know, fine. Maybe we got a guardian ad litem. We get an accountant. Like there’s lots of ways to spend money between between your first mediation and a trial, right? Oh, yeah. Of the 18% that said, no, we’re going to have a judge figure this out, 15 of the 18% settled before trial. So only 3%. Now, granted, it’s still like 200,000 or so cases, but you’re talking 200,000 in two years in the entire state of Florida. That’s amazing.

That is amazing. It’s funny. You guys have a lot more interventions along the way. We have like a parent, we have custom parenting time mediation early on with someone at the courthouse. It’s free for everybody. So they have to go to the courthouse. No attorneys are allowed. But the mediation part of it doesn’t come into play until about the eight or nine month mark of a divorce. Really? Well, unless they’re pro se, like you were saying, right?

Well,

you can choose to go to mediation, but you’re not going to be mandated by the court. But what’s interesting here is what we’ve been seeing a lot is that judges, particularly in post-divorce matters, you know, enforcement, modification, that sort of thing. Right. Judges are just not ruling on anything. They’re just sending everything to mediation. That

happens a lot here, too.

Which is why, like if there’s another attorney on the case, like we both know what’s going to happen. Why are we even going to court to begin with? Our clients are going to spend $5,000 to $10,000 just to be told to go to mediation. So, but I do like, so here we have obviously small claims, you know, the smaller civil cases, they all have to go to mediation. All of our civil cases go to what’s called non-binding arbitration, which is this like, it’s kind of like mediation but like they actually give you an opinion right right the family doesn’t have anything like that for divorces early on um you know in our our um non-dissolution core you know custody and child support there there is sort of there’s sort of a built-in sort of mediation but it’s still not very well organized either so i’m really listening to you i’m seeing all the gaps in terms of what we could be doing better here but it’s sort of it’s sort of one of those things that this is why divorce is so difficult is because every state has their own laws everything is very specific to each state but then we have all of this cohesion that we have to have between our states in terms of custody and support and all these other things horsemen and yeah becomes very difficult i mean enforcement i’ll pick on your state for a minute but it’s do it do it well it’s very well known that in new jersey if someone doesn’t want to pay support just move to florida yeah really yes it is we it is like the the why Well, I could go into a long list of reasons, but they are

very… Maybe a couple, because this is brand new to me.

Florida is very difficult to work with to enforce. Like New Jersey, we arrest people like it’s going out of style. Yeah, they don’t

arrest people here. I wish they would. Texas arrests people. Texas does. Yeah, Florida does not. I wish they would.

Sometimes you need to sit in a jail cell for like a couple hours to be… told how important it is for you to support your children yeah i agree i agree so that was so that’s what it’s an interesting sort of dynamic but in new jersey new jersey and florida are sort of connected so is new jersey and texas i have a ton of cases between those two states in new jersey uh you know in fact i just i was just dealing with one yesterday where uh someone lives in boca rotonda and my another the father’s moving to miami beach and so we’re Of course, I had to take out the map. I didn’t realize how far that was between the two. It’s like right around the corner, right? It’s on the same

side. It’s just right down the street, right?

You guys can do 50-50. This ain’t going to be hard. But it’s really interesting how the mediation, no matter where you are, it’s really the same thing at its core. I have mediated in other states because part of my other sort of hat that I wear is I’m a men’s divorce coach. And I do that nationwide. So through that, sometimes people will ask me to mediate in California or Texas, or I did one in Ohio recently. And it’s interesting, all of our laws, Every state has their own laws, but everything’s fairly similar. It’s all a very similar thing. Actually, it’s very similar in other countries, too, that have our similar system. So it doesn’t really matter. So when you start to see how mediation is just this universal language that can work everywhere, it really makes you question why it isn’t required like you guys do in Florida, why it isn’t required immediately. just that initial, because most of the time you can resolve everything. Most of our custody and parenting time disputes are resolved in that free mediation that I just spoke about. And that has, there’s no attorneys involved in that at all. There’s someone in the courthouse that does it. It’s part of our judicial system. It’s a freebie that everyone gets. A freebie

to help with one of the most difficult parts of

the divorce. exactly and you’re like well you can either do it for free and get it get an agreement or you can start fighting you know and people people do that but i just think at its core whether you do it mandated by the court or whether you do it voluntarily you know anyone who really is serious about this has got to consider mediation from day one and attorneys are going to tell you oh no we need to get some information first we need to exchange this But they’re doing that, I stress this to everybody, they’re doing that to cover themselves. They’re not doing that because you need things. Unless you don’t know anything. I mean, you probably see people all the time, they’re like, they know nothing about the finances. Well, it’s really hard to reach an agreement until you get some information about the finances so they actually know what’s going on.

Sure, sure.

So, Ari, you just mentioned

Men’s Divorce Coach. What is that? What are you doing?

So during the pandemic, I really wanted to start to help men. I’ve always known for a while that men in particular have a unique set of challenges, particularly men that don’t come from really urban areas, rural. And as we were talking about before, my family’s from rural areas. I know what those communities are like. Well, everybody, you know, everyone’s business. The last thing most men want to even talk about is what’s going on in their personal life to say nothing about talking about it in a small community. So women have resources all over the place. And you go on the Internet and you even type in divorce coach. Almost every divorce coach is going to be a woman. And if you look at the language, even on the men’s divorce, divorce coaches who are men, even their language seems to cater more towards women. It’s much more emotional. It’s much more, you know, like self-improvement and all of this sort of stuff. Men are more tactical. Like whenever a divorce is happening, they’re like, they’re scared. Am I going to lose my kids? Am I going to lose my money? Like they’re not worried about, you know, working. How

do I feel? Yes,

they’re not worried about that. So I, yeah, but so how do I, so I want to see how I could help people. So I started, I started a community. the Men’s Divorce Network that was just started as like a Facebook group at the beginning. I didn’t know really what I wanted to do with it. That grew very quickly. Guys are on there all the time, just giving each other advice. You know, people come in, they had a bad weekend with, you know, the ex and people come in and they all talk. And it’s just like a safe space where there’s no women. It’s all men. And then that led to, I created a podcast, Get Divorced Without Getting Screwed, which is- Oh, I love it. which was all about helping men through divorce. So I think we’re 120 something episodes in. And basically I bring on experts, but I also have interviewed men that have gone through divorce, like for an hour, just talking about how did you feel whenever your wife said, you know, I want a divorce. And just to summarize, they almost to a person say, I was shocked. I didn’t know this was coming.

to

which I figuratively like to go through the screen and smack them across the face a few times. I really had no idea. You knew this was coming if you just had your eyes open. But anyway, men have different needs. So I don’t do traditional. I don’t like the word coach. I know we hear it all the time, but I call myself a men’s divorce strategist. So what I really concentrate on is helping guys organize themselves for divorce. So that might mean, who do I hire? What process do I take? How do I talk to my wife about mediation? Because even in this role, I’m still, I’m all about mediation. I can help them organize themselves. So yeah, I love it. It’s actually, I feel much better being a divorce coach than anything else. I really enjoy it. And these guys really are in a better position because we work together.

So I’ll tell you, when I got divorced back in 01, that would have been amazing because I didn’t have anybody. I didn’t have friends. I didn’t have family that had gone through it. And I was just like, by myself trying to figure out, okay, how do I do this? And so I was like, I think you get the kids and I think I visit them and I pay you child support. And I guess that’s how this is. And I don’t really know. And we had done our own divorce and it was today’s amicable divorce that turned into tomorrow’s bloodbath because we did our own divorce. Back then, no attorneys, no mediators. We sat on the floor, Mother’s Day night, filled out the paperwork, filed it on that Monday. And then we were divorced, I think three days before Father’s Day. Quick Easy, no issue. A year later turned into a 12-year war. We had 43 motions for contempt enforcement, moves, DCF. I mean, it was just a bloodbath. And which all of that led me to become a mediator going, you know, because it wasn’t until the judge was so sick and tired of seeing my ex and I that he ordered us to mediation. I’m like, what’s mediation? And we sat in mediation, and I was sitting there with my attorney. I’m going, this is the coolest process in the world. Like, I could do this. But I had to go get educated and had to get my degrees. I mean, like, I didn’t even have college education at the time. And so I was like, that’s what I want to do with my life. You know, this is not a job. It’s a calling. It’s who I am. You know, just like you, you know, professional problem solver. I’m like a professional problem solver, peacemaker. And, you know, always looking at, okay, you know, how do we get to the end game without killing each other? You know, is that possible? But I mean, having a group like that or having other guys to talk to, to be able to bounce ideas off of and would have been just amazing. Would have been really, really, really cool. There’s a law firm here in Florida called Kenny Lee and Associates. They represent men only. They have billboards, divorce men only. They do men only divorces. You know, really, a lot of it really focused on father’s rights and whatnot. And I worked with them for years, you know, as a mediator. And they, you know, granted, they’re missing out on half the population if you’re going to represent anybody. But they really focused on the fathers, you know, father’s rights and all of that. But yeah, that sounds really neat what you’ve done. And so is it still a Facebook page or like how would people find that?

So mensdivorcenetwork.com is the site. And you can still join the Facebook group. I’m a little bit more selective about who I let into it now. Like, I really want to know who you are and sort of why you want to be there. Because people get in and they try to, you know, like all things, people try to come in and sell things to people. This is a support group. It’s a free support. I mean, there’s no cost involved. I think right now there’s, I don’t even know how many people are in it right now, but there’s a lot and it’s very active. Good. So that’s really, you know, that’s where, and then I get them behind the scenes of the podcast. I like to give them like, kind of like, but I didn’t, what we didn’t put on the official podcast, you know, because some of that, there’s some good conversations that happen when, that don’t make it into the actual podcast. know whatever gets published so i do that too but um i really just want to feel make them feel empowered and a lot of them have told me like oh my god this is this made me feel so good i felt so much better and a lot of them after they’re divorced have stayed in because it’s been around for over five years now yeah a lot of divorce and they stay in it and they just come in to give advice to other people so it’s that’s awesome self-fulfilling sort of yeah And I love it. And I’ve still to this day have not found anything quite like it for men going through a divorce. So I’m, you know, every time I’m like, okay, should I keep doing this? I look at that and I see all the support. I’m like, I’m going to keep doing it. I’m going to just keep, keep rolling.

And that’s neat. You come in as a patient and you end up staying and then mentoring others, you know, giving back, which is, which is really neat. That’s really, really neat. Yeah. Yeah. That’s, That’s neat. And so I really, really appreciate you coming on today. This has been a great conversation talking with you. I’ve got a couple of questions I want to ask you, lightning round questions at the end, okay? So no thought. You just got to tell me first thing that pops in your mind, all right? Ready. Okay, ready? What’s your dream job?

Dream job. Hmm.

Might give me the first thing that pops in my head because that would be a musician.

Musician. All right. Well, all right. So now I have to ask you,

what instrument? So I was a music major back in college. And I played clarinet. Okay. Back in the day, I was pretty good. But I, of course, like all things, if you don’t practice, you lose your talent a little bit. Uh, so I still miss that. I still, you know, I still wish that I had done that. I’m not a very analytical person, which is probably why I do mediation. Cause I don’t, I don’t like to analyze things. Yeah. Um, more of a field person. I like, you know, like I like to just, so I, anyway, so I’m much more creative. And so like, there’s not a lot of creative outlets for, for people when you’re doing law. Sure. Sure.

Yeah.

Mediation is as close to creativity as you can really get. But yeah, if I had to do it all over again, I probably would have continued my music career. It’s sort of like the one, I mean, we all have regrets in our life. That’s probably the only true regret I ever have. So to answer your question, if I could do anything, it would be a musician.

All right. So that’s interesting because question two is, what’s your favorite type of music? Interesting that you had mentioned you wanted to be a musician. You played music. So question two, what’s your favorite type of music?

This one’s so easy. Music scores for movies.

Music scores for movies.

So I’m not going to say classical because I don’t like all classical. Like scores from movies, particularly scores that, like I say, without the score, the movie would suck. Like there are movies out there. We all know them. The score is like half of the movie. And you don’t even realize it. when you’re just watching the movie. But if you listen to the score, like you can see the movie while you’re listening to the score. I love that. Whenever I’m doing work, when I’m drafting settlement agreements, I always… score of some music, a movie going in the background, always.

Yeah. I mean, it’s sort of, you know, I grew up in the 80s. I was born in the 70s. For me, you know, like Star Wars would be that type of a movie, like that score. You know what I was listening, it’s interesting you mentioned it. You know what I was listening to earlier, I was going to say earlier, this was yesterday, but earlier today, which was yesterday, was the score from Social Network, Trent Reznor? Oh, I’ve heard that once. It was, I think it’s pretty good. Love it. I mean, I’m a big Nine Inch Nails fan, so I love Nine Inch Nails. But that score that he did, that’s an amazing score. And that really gave that feel for that whole movie, just like you said. So it’s interesting you would mention that because I’m like, I was listening to the score yesterday. Okay, third question. Favorite food?

Mexican. Mexican. I’m married. I’m married. to someone from Latin America. So I’m, I’m constantly inundated with that type of food, but I am just, I mean, I see Mexican, I mean, in general, I like all Latino food, but particularly I like Mexican food the most, but I can eat it every single day and, you know, twice on Sunday. I love it. That’s awesome.

That’s awesome. All right. Next question. Two more. Next question. If you could have a meal with one person, living or dead, who would it be and why?

You know what? I

think most people want to say people like Obama and things like that, but I actually would want to go back and actually have a meal with George Washington. I don’t know why.

Okay. I

mean, it’s… I’m a history buff. I am such a big history buff. I read history books. It’s the only kind of book I read. I read history books all the time. I’m a little partial to English history, so part of me wants to go back to one of those monarchs back in the day. But I think we’ve had so much, and as a lawyer, you can appreciate this, we’ve had so much going on where we always talk about the Constitution and what it means and what it says. I would love to go back and talk to someone who was there at the beginning and be like, come on, you guys didn’t mean this when you wrote this, right? This isn’t what we intended. You had no idea we were going to have, you know, iPhones and computers and all this other stuff you couldn’t even possibly. Yeah. Like, so, you know, I, so I really, I mean, it could be, it could be, I see George Washington just because I think it’s, I’d be very interested to see how he navigated those early days. But I mean, anyone who was part of drafting all that, I really, I think in today’s climate, I’m more curious than ever, like what would they say about what we’re going through? And as a lawyer, I’m always fascinated by, by looking at this from a legal perspective. It just fascinates me because there’s, there’s, there’s realism behind everything and you have to be real too. You can’t just be, can’t just say, oh, it says, you know, it says this word on the page. I’m like, okay, but what, come

on. But as an attorney, that’s what you do. You analyze every word and try to find the intent, which goes back to what we were saying, even as, you know, you and I both drafting as mediators. It’s very, very important that we’re able, and that’s why I like to draft because I, I’m the one helping them negotiate. I know what they want. I know how to put it into words so it can stand the test of time, whether it’s to be followed or even interpreted. Absolutely. You know, same exact thing, just like you’re saying with Washington. So, all right, last question. Here we go. If you could live anywhere in the world with your family, where would you live and why?

Hmm.

So you and your partner, and I think you have a daughter, right? Or daughters? Okay, so if you could live anywhere in the world, where would you choose to live and why?

So I have to give you two answers because if I say my first answer, people are going to be like, oh, he doesn’t want to live in the country anymore. No, no,

no, you can go anywhere. There’s no judgment.

if i could live anywhere in the world it would be the uk i love i love britain um but but in the us really and i i’m really close to new york city right now in princeton but new york city is the perfect place to live i okay i would live there in a heartbeat um it’s uh it is really the center of the universe it really is everything and everything you could possibly need or want is there and i’m a foodie too so new york city

okay

Yeah, so much good food there. Of course, knowing that I love Latin food, I mean, of course, Florida is another great place, or Texas. I mean, I like the food down there, but I don’t like the culture as much. I like New York. You see everyone from all over the world all the time. You walk outside, and you can tell a hundred different countries down one street. You can see them. You’re absolutely right. There’s nowhere else like it. There’s nowhere else like it.

Yeah, yeah. So either the UK or New York, just hop the river, hop the river.

Well, London is similar to New York in a lot of ways. So I guess they kind of, you know, it’s like a different version of New York. But yeah, I love New York. And we go all the time. In fact, I’m going, what’s today, Sunday? Going on Wednesday to see Sunset Boulevard because it’s going to be closing soon. And I got to go see it before it closes. I love the theater too. Of course, I love music. So I’ll go see anything that’s music-based.

Yeah, anything music-based. So, well, John, I really appreciate you coming on today, spending some time, and hope to hear from you soon. Absolutely. My pleasure. All righty. Have a great day. You too. Take care. All right.

Bye-bye.

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