Sydney Mitchell:

Hi. My name is Sydney Mitchell.

Matthew Brickman:

Hi, I’m Matthew Brickman, Florida Supreme court mediator. Welcome to the Mediate This! Podcast where we discuss everything mediation and conflict resolution.

Matthew Brickman: 00:02
I am joined here today with Ryan Finley. Ryan, I believe you were the founder of Freedom Financial Services Group. I think in in uh Tennessee and Florida, correct? That’s correct, yes.

Ryan Finley: 00:30
Our main office is in Tennessee, and we’ve just started office in Florida.

Matthew Brickman: 00:35
Yeah, um, I believe over in Sarasota, right?

Ryan Finley: 00:37
Yes, that’s correct.

Matthew Brickman: 00:38
Yeah. Um, and you’ve got, so I your background, you’ve got 35 years of experience in divorce, real estate analysis, business valuation, financing, accounting. Um, you’re a mediator, I believe, a rule 31 mediator in Tennessee. Um, and then you also CPA, CVA, which I’m not sure what that is. I’ve I’ve got some questions about what that is. I know what a CPA is. I’ve never heard of a CVA. Um, and then also you’re a certified divorce financial uh analyst, correct?

Ryan Finley: 01:10
That’s correct. Yes, almost. A CVA is a certified valuation analyst, so it gives me uh authority, I guess, or the certification to value business.

Matthew Brickman: 01:21
Oh, to do business evaluation? Yes, yes. Oh, so so that’s handy in mediation because I come across that. So all right, so so how did you get into it? Where do you come in? Just talk to me.

Ryan Finley: 01:38
Okay, all right. Um 35 years of financial experience. That that means I’m old. No, um means you started young. Yeah, started young. I like that answer back. So I was in um I was with a group that we did small business acquisitions for. I was in there with them for 10 years, and I was in new business development for 10 years with them, and that helped me evaluate businesses and be able to look at contracts and understand financial situations and look at income and expenses. And then after that, I’ve been uh CFOs of different companies in real estate, uh commercial construction, home building, different things like that. Um, and then about five years ago, I had a friend that was in, she was a divorce coach, and she was doing divorce coaching, and she asked me to help her on some of the stuff. And then I realized that my experience lined up perfectly for what she was would need, you know, as far as you know, being able to look at a situation and determine it and then and explain it in simplified terms to her client. And so in doing that, then I started getting interested. I was helping on weekends and week weekdays or evenings and weekends, and then you know, got interested in it and got my CDFA certification, and then got my CBA certification and my mediator, and just one thing led to another, and it’s it’s I enjoy doing it, and I enjoy, I know it’s a bad situation, but I enjoy helping. Yeah, and there’s a lot of people and a lot of trauma that just need some guidance and someone to explain to them the situation they’re in. You know, it’s an emotional, it’s an emotional situation, and they just need somebody that they can trust, or somebody that can explain in simple terms what this means. And so that that’s kind of my background and how I got into this business.

Matthew Brickman: 03:41
Yeah. Well, and and as you touched on, you know, as as mediators, you know, we’re we’re sitting in the middle of it, and a lot of times it’s the finances that led them to the divorce, um, and to have someone like you that can break it down into simple terms to make sense of something that either they were never a part of, you know, a lot of times I run into it where like one party and it used to be more of the man than the woman, but I’ve seen it seen those roles even reverse where you’ve got one party, we’ll just call them one party, man or woman, I don’t care. But you’ve got one party who’s who is really good with numbers and finances and stuff, and the other party’s not that much, so they really trust one person, but then when you get divorced, that trust is broken. So then when you come in, I imagine it’s it’s not even it’s not even just to explain it, but you’re having to build a trust where they trust no one because it led to where they are, right?

Ryan Finley: 04:43
You get yes, you hit the nail on the head. I mean, this is their best friend, this is someone they’ve been with 10, 15, 20, 25 years, and they trust him. And all of a sudden, one day they’re going through this divorce. They’re best friends suing them, and they’re going through this situation. So you’re right, they don’t trust anybody. And so, you know, and a lot of them don’t know their financial situation. So a lot of what I do and probably what you do as well, is you start to build their financial picture. You start getting the documents together and build their financial picture and put together a marital balance sheet and just kind of explain that to them. Look at their income and expenses, and uh we look at them, what they are on a marital basis, and then post-divorce, we do a budget based upon what this person’s expenses would be versus this person. And as you know, that helps in mediation because then you have to look and see, you know, post-divorce are is each party able to cover their uh monthly expenses and then how we divide assets up. So you’re exactly right. And and I was looking at your website, and I admire the way you do it too, because you bring them in, and it looks like you and it looks like you’re meeting with the parties directly. And I do a lot of that as well. So a lot of my mediations, um sometimes attorneys involved, but most times not. It’s most times it’s it’s the two parties and me, you know, and it’s they send me the the financial uh documents they have, we put together, as I mentioned, the marital balance sheet uh we put together and income and expenses for each one of them. And that kind of helps them, it helps them kind of see when I bring them into mediation. I have this big television screen up there, and we put the marital balance sheet up there, sure. And they can see it, they can visualize it, they can say, okay, this is our assets. If I get this and they get this, and we know that everything kind of breaks out, then this is how it breaks out. And and I like that way to do it. You know, I’m a like as you mentioned, a CPA, CDFA, I’m not an attorney. So to me, it makes sense, and my my clients can see it. You know, instead of just giving a piece of paper saying you get this, I get this, they screw the numbers, they see if I move this and I give them a little bit of this, how does that affect the bottom line and the equation? It’s a math problem. You know, it’s yeah, um, it’s an emotional math problem. And so some people have to, you know, I have to tell them sometimes, this is the business of Mary, or this is the business of Joe. You know, if this wasn’t you and somebody else, what would you tell them, or what would the best decision be? And so that’s a lot of it is just kind of changing the mind frame and and and showing them down the road that the impact and decision right now makes.

Matthew Brickman: 07:34
Yeah. Well, and and and one of the things that I find um you had you had touched on it, um, I think in a divorce, before we get to the F-word that a lot of people seem to like, you hit on the B word, and that’s budget. And most people they don’t even know what a budget is, or do they like a budget, and they’re living beyond their means, and then they come in. We’re going, okay, look, the law says this, the statute says this. Look, if you can’t figure it out, well, this is what a court’s gonna do. And then they’re sitting there going, Um, how am I supposed to make it? I’m like, look, you had two incomes with one home, one electric, one water, one everything. Now you’re gonna have two incomes and you’re gonna have double. There’s only so much money to go around. They weren’t living on a budget, but now one of the things I like that that you had said is you not only run the equitable distribution sheet, but then you show them, okay, and then once we divide it up, this is what your budget would need to be, because so many of them didn’t live on a budget, which has probably caused this problem. Now they’re either gonna ignore that they didn’t have a budget and still not have a budget, end up in another financial bind, or at least you’re giving them a roadmap and saying, look, here’s the map, follow it to your destination or not, that’s up to you. But the budget is I think I think the I think the budget’s really big.

Ryan Finley: 09:01
And you’re right. And the way I struck to mind is they’ve got what they’re living on now. This is their marital expenses now.

Matthew Brickman: 09:08
Right.

Ryan Finley: 09:08
This is you know, husbands post-divorce, this is wives. And as you mentioned, when you add one and two, three, then you can compare what their combined budgets are now with what the marital budget was. And it’s it’s more because, like you said, you’re paying two utility bills, two rents, or two, you know, two mortgages, or insurance.

Matthew Brickman: 09:27
Two everything.

Ryan Finley: 09:28
Everything, yeah. And so it shows them the difference. Here’s what we were spending before. We’ve got a significant increase. We’ve got to figure out how I’m gonna cover mine and you’re gonna cover yours. Yeah.

Matthew Brickman: 09:39
Let me ask you that. Let me ask you this because I’ve had it twice. So I’ve been I’ve been doing this for about uh this will be 18 years. Um, I’ll start 19 years in June. But what’s interesting is I’ve actually sat down with the parties just like you and gone through everything. And I remember I remember this, I remember this one couple. Every time I’m like, okay, well, what is you know, what’s your mortgage? What’s your what’s your electrical? And she she she kept going, it’s what we’re spending one. Wait, wait, wait, what? And he’s like, Well, you wanted your pay-per-view, and you wanted to have your sports, and you wanted to have your movie channel, and she’s like, What? And then he’s and then and then and then it’s like, well, what’s what’s your gas? This is what we’re spending on gas. This is what we’re spending on food. She’s like, What? She had no clue whatsoever. And so at the end of it, they both said, they said, Well, how are we supposed to make it? And I’m like, Unfortunately, that’s not the court’s problem. That’ll be your problem. And you know what, Ryan? They actually abated their divorce because they couldn’t afford to live separate. Have you had that when you’ve done that analysis?

Ryan Finley: 10:48
But we I get that situation a lot. We the county that we live in in Tennessee is a very wealthy county. And it’s, you know, we have once when they get married, usually what you described, one spouse follows their career, one raises the family, and then 10 years, 15 years down the road, one spouse has no clue what the finance, what they’re spending, what they have in assets, what they have anything. And it’s just an eye-opening deal. And, you know, as a CDFA, sometimes I go into these mediations for litigation support. I’m representing one party.

Matthew Brickman: 11:24
Right.

Ryan Finley: 11:25
A lot of times we represent that party that had no clue because we’re trying to explain to them, you know, what they have and what they need and what it’s going to look like post-divorce. And so, you know, it’s we do run into that a lot, and a lot of that is just educating them. Here’s here’s how much to spend, and here’s how much you’re you’re gonna need to live this lifestyle post-divorce, you know, and do you have enough assets? Is there enough that do you make partial you know on your part-time job? And is there enough access to for spouse support and covers? Yeah, and you’re right, they have to tighten their butt the belts quite a bit and just you know, figure out, you know, I didn’t realize it cost that much. I didn’t realize my mortgage was eight thousand dollars, and I’ll probably get ten or twelve in the and alimony. I mean, that’s a lot of money too.

Matthew Brickman: 12:15
So yeah, yeah. Well, so so I I had a mediation recently where the husband, oh no, sorry, sorry. Wait, what was it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it was it was a husband. They dated for like eight years, and then they got married, and they’ve only been married for two. So most everything was premarital. Well, the husband had everything. I mean, he had made everything premarital, everything was in his name, everything. Well, of course, you know, I think I mean just in crypto, he had like five million dollars. Oh yeah, and so so he had his financial advisor, he had his financial uh analyst. The wife had nothing, she didn’t make anything, didn’t have anything, and whatnot. And they were they were on the eve of trial, and so a week before mediation, he actually hired a second uh uh financial analysis before her, so that she would have her own that could explain everything, and so then the two financial analysts could talk so uh or analysts so that then they she would understand where he was and whatnot. So he actually paid for two his and she couldn’t afford them. But he’s like, look, the only way that this is gonna work out so we don’t go to a trial and waste more money for the same result is I need to get her one. And then um, and so he ended up hiring two. I’ve never had where one person hired one for him and one for the other one, but he needed that so that she could understand that explanation because her attorney, I mean, there were so many accounts and the crypto and all this stuff. The attorney didn’t know.

Ryan Finley: 14:02
Now that was smart on his behalf, you know, to recognize that hey, no matter what offer I make her, if she doesn’t understand it, it’s not a good offer.

Matthew Brickman: 14:10
Yeah. She well, and that and that had happened, Ryan. He had made offers, and everything was a quick rejection, but a rejection out of fear and ignorance. And so he needed the professional to come in, look at, I mean, for someone advocating for her to look at everything and say, uh, yeah, this is this is how it is, and this is why. And then to have the attorney there going, the law says, here’s your date of marriage, here’s your date of filing, this is all his. Sorry. And so, so, so yeah, I’ve like, like I said, I’ve never had that, but it was definitely helpful.

Ryan Finley: 14:48
I can see that. Uh, more people should probably do that. If if one does not have one, one party doesn’t, and one has significant money, then that’s probably a good way to explain it. Because attorneys are great, but a lot of them don’t have the financial experience or the uh knowledge to dive into something that like that. You know what I mean?

Matthew Brickman: 15:10
You want to know why? You want to know why? Okay, okay. Myself included as a family mediator, we go into family law because we don’t do math. That’s why you’ll hear that from all the family attorneys. They said, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We we we chose this particular area of law because we don’t do math. So that’s where, Ryan, we need you because we choose this area because we I mean, the other night, I’ll tell you a funny story. The other night, that this is how bad we don’t do math. I don’t do math. The other night my wife is like, Yeah, um, we’re coming up on our 15th wedding anniversary. I’m like, 15 years that that can’t be, and she’s like, Well, yeah, it was 2011. And I’m like, 2011. No, no, that can’t be 15. And I had to get a calculator go 2026 minus 11. Oh, yeah, it is 15. Like, I don’t do math. I can’t even do 26 minus 11, is what? Right?

Ryan Finley: 16:12
But I’m glad it’s you that said that and not me. So no, no, no, no, no.

Matthew Brickman: 16:16
And that is that I mean, we say that out loud in mediation all the time. We’re we’re like, yeah, we don’t do math. Like, that’s why we like, and there and there are times, Ryan, where we’re in mediation trying to figure it out, and it’s and and you know, the client is just not getting it. They just don’t get it. And so at that, you know, at that point, we’ll adjourn, they’ll go hire someone like you, and then come back to mediation, and then we can settle it because again, they need to understand it and or actually they need to see it and then understand it. They don’t have, and I I tell people all the time with numbers, I’m like, look, numbers are not emotional. Numbers are numbers, they are what they are. Now, granted, as humans, we get emotional over numbers, but the numbers themselves are just numbers, and you don’t have to like it, you just need to understand it.

Ryan Finley: 17:08
That’s correct, that’s a good way to put it. Because a lot of it, if once they understand it, then they, as you mentioned earlier, they’re more likely to come to an agreement because they always the mistrust is in that mediation room, yeah. You know, because as we mentioned earlier, this is their best friend that they married, and now they’re getting divorced, and they the trust is gone. And so once they understand, then it’s a lot easier to come to a sell.

Matthew Brickman: 17:38
Yeah, well, and I you know, when when when you know where I’m in mediation, I I like like I’ll tell I’ll tell the wife, I’m like, you know what, you and I have more trust than you and Joe. You said Mary and Joe, you and Joe, because you and I haven’t violated it yet. Yeah, you and Joe violated it. Therefore, you have level, you know. I said said, look, if we can get you to zero, you’re sub-zero right now with Joe, but if we can get you to zero, that’s a healthy place. If we can get above that, that’s really amazing. But you and I, you and I, we haven’t violated it. So so we have more of a trust together, you know. And I tell people, I said, nobody like like like Ryan, I wouldn’t meet you today and then give you full access to my entire life, the keys to my house and my car and my bank accounts and everything, and say, okay, if something comes up missing, I’m gonna start deducting points. And eventually we get down to zero. I’m like, I don’t trust you anymore, right? No, no, no. Trust is earned through time and action, right? And so, and so since it’s that, you know, like like I may be like, hey, you know, you want to have coffee. We have coffee, we build a friendship, and you know, it’s like, oh, I’m going out of town, can you housewatch? Yeah, okay, fine. You build that, right? But and so, like me and Mary, we would start off with zero. Like, we like we’re starting to build, but her and Joe have already violated. Um, and so, and so as a mediator, and well, here’s what’s weird people will hire, and I don’t know if you’ve you’ve run into this, but like, well, I’m just gonna continue with Mary and Joe. So, Mary will hire her attorney. Her attorney will give her legal advice. She’s like, Oh, I don’t trust you. Wait a second, you hired them. Then then they hire you. You come in and be like, Well, Mary, I like this is what it is, is what it is. Oh, I don’t trust you either. Then they come to mediation, like, I don’t trust the mediator. It’s like, okay, like, but again, they felt that level of betrayer at the core level, that even the people they hire and they’re advocates, they still have trouble, some people still have trouble with that. So, as a mediator and as a, you know, when you come in with the numbers, how do you like like if you run into that, how do you actually build that with them?

Ryan Finley: 19:49
And let me go back to something you said earlier that you made a great point on. Is as a mediator, you could be in there with these two, and you could be telling her the exact same thing that her Husband just told her or make the same offer, but she trusts you and not him. I mean, he could offer her everything, and then she said, No, I don’t trust you. I don’t know, it’s not, I’m not gonna take that. And then, you know, as mediators, we relay it, and she says, Oh, that’s a pretty good deal, you know.

Matthew Brickman: 20:17
It’s sort of it’s sort of like children. I can tell my kids the same thing over and over again, and then you walk up, you’re like, Hey, you shouldn’t do that. You’re like, okay. Like, have I not been saying that? It’s just, I don’t know. Yeah, it’s just weird. Humanity.

Ryan Finley: 20:30
Yeah, but those we’ve we run in that situation quite a bit. Um, you know, where but to answer your question about how do you build trust with them.

Matthew Brickman: 20:40
Yeah.

Ryan Finley: 20:42
There’s, you know, as I wear two hats, you know, as a forensic accounting CDFA, I build trust with them that way because I’m on their side. I’m not an as a mediator, you’re in your neutral. You’re not helping either one of them. As a CDFA, I’m on their team. And so, you know, there’s and it does take a while to build a trust because they don’t trust anybody. And so you start putting together, you know, the marital balance sheet, and you know, just to look at what the distribution of assets would be, but just gathering that stuff, and you’re you’re kind of educating them like we mentioned earlier, a lot of them have no clue. And so, as we’re putting this together, we’re teaching them what they actually have and showing them what they have. Did you know you had this, these investments? Did you know your house was worth this? Did you know, you know, and then and then quite frequently will uncover something they didn’t know about. You know, there’s an investment that is in the husband’s name. That you know, where did this come from? And so you build some trust that way. When you find things like that, you’re educating them on their situation. So then it’s like then you become, I don’t want to say like a parent, but more like a teacher as you’re kind of teaching them their financial situation or educating them on their situation. So as a CDFA and an advocate for that person, that’s how you build trust on them. As a mediator, I had one last week where there was no trust between the two at all. And it was just like, you know, I had to build trust one-on-one with each of them. And it was um just poor funds back and forth, asking questions about this. And this one said, Well, I didn’t see her credit card, okay? I’m you know, I was acting fairly to both of them, and I think it was evident to them that hey, I’m not on her side, I’m not on his side. I’m trying to get a settlement between you guys, something you both and that’s one of the things I tell them that when we were getting our mediator certification, you thank them for being there because this is something that they’re deciding. This is something that these two people get to decide their their, I don’t want to say consequences, but their path. You know, this is you guys are deciding it. It’s not going to an attorney’s, it’s not going the judge had, you know, it’s not going all this trail, and then the judge has an hour and here’s the case and says, You get this, you get this. This is you guys making this decision. It’s not somebody else deciding it on your behalf. And so, you know, explain that to them a lot a lot. And then, you know, there’s but you you do build trust. You you do, as an as you know this, as a mediator. You build trust, and and but there’s still an ounce of doubt when they’re in there because they don’t trust everybody. But you know, and the other thing I tell them is when you know, when you come in the mediation, the answer today is gonna be somewhere between what you want and what you accept. There’s then that’s a pretty wide spectrum. And just you know, be open-minded. And I’m gonna talk to you today about you know other things, seeing things different ways and being open to different perspectives and being flexible. I’m not saying it’s for better or worse, but you know, if you want more than half and he wants more than half, there’s no way we’re gonna come to a resolution. We’re just trying to make this what’s best for both of you. What’s in, you know, and when I meet with you one-on-one, I find out what’s important with you, I find out what’s important with them. And then that gives me, as a mediator, kind of headway of where I, hey, this is important to them, this is not as important to them. So, you know, we give a little bit here and a little less there, or you know, if the house is that important, then we give more investments to them. So it gives as a mediator, you kind of, because you’ve got these one-on-one conversations, you kind of know where the where you can push a little bit and give a little bit. And you know, just tell them to keep an open mind, and we’re gonna, you know, try to work this out the best we can. And you keep emphasizing, you know, I’m not on your team, I’m not on his team. This is just what you know, this is a this is a math problem. We’ve got the big spreadsheet up here, you know. We’re moving these numbers around here. Here’s the bottom line still, you know, it’s 59, right? I’m sorry, 4951 or 5050 or or or whatever. It’s just peace of mind that they’re not getting manipulated or screwed over or anything like that.

Matthew Brickman: 25:22
So yeah. So, so I’ve got a question.

Matthew Brickman:
Occasionally Sydney and I will be releasing Q&A bonus episodes where we’ll answer your questions and give you a personal shoutout.

Sydney Mitchell:
If you have a comment or question regarding anything that we discuss, email us at info@ichatmediation.com that’s info@ichatmediation.com and stay tuned to hear your shout out and have your question answered here on the show.

Matthew Brickman:

For more information about my services or to schedule your mediation with me, either in person or using my iChatMediation Virtual Platform built by Cisco Communications. Visit me online at www.iMediateInc.com. Call me at 561-262-9121, Toll-Free at 877-822-1479 or email me at MBrickman@iChatMediation.com.