Attorney Rebecca Palmer: Correlation Between Divorce & Later Psychological Problems

Mediate This! Podcast:

Hi, my name is Sydney Mitchell. Hi, I’m Matthew Brickman, Florida Supreme court mediator. Welcome to the Mediate This! Podcast where we discuss everything mediation and conflict resolution.

 

Matthew Brickman (00:11):
Alright, so I’m so excited to have Rebecca Palmer back on the podcast year three in a row. Now

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (00:22):
Three’s a charm.

Matthew Brickman (00:23):
<laugh>, yeah. Three. What’s so, so, I’m excited. So, Rebecca, for, for those that may not know who you are, do a quick little introduction. Like I, you’re in Orlando, you’re an attorney, but give a little bit more.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (00:35):
Sure. So my name is Rebecca L. Palmer. Um, I’ve been a lawyer for 30 years. Um, I worked for a very large law firm. I was a partner there, equity partner. It was great, but I always had this dream of having my own firm. And finally I had the nerve to do it. Um, and when I did it, I did things very differently than a big firm. I have white orchids, light color woods, you know, comfortable seats. And I just did it the way I wanted to do it. I brought my dog to work every day. Um, you know, uh, hired my kids, hired amazing, brilliant people. And, uh, it’s been really fun. So I’ve, I’ve done a lot of big cases. Like I did, did, I did the Tiger Woods divorce. I represented Elon, um, you know, and I’ve done itty bitty tiny divorces. My neighbors, my friends at the gym. So the gamut.

Matthew Brickman (01:36):
Yeah. Everything in between. Um, and, and you’re in Orlando?

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (01:40):
Yes, I’m in Orlando. And those from, or who know Orlando, when I grew up, it, you know, I’ve been there forever. It was called the Copper Whopper. So it, it’s like this copper glass high rise. And, uh, it’s a great building and that’s where I am.

Matthew Brickman (02:00):
Yep. Alright. And fun fact that people may not know about you. You have a family band?

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (02:07):
Yes. Stupid name

Matthew Brickman (02:10):
Called,

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (02:12):
I wish I could rename it. There’s so many great band names <laugh>, like,

Matthew Brickman (02:18):
So, so tell everybody what it is and then what would you rename it?

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (02:23):
Ooh.

Matthew Brickman (02:24):
Because, because you and I have never talked about that. You’ve never brought up Oh, I’d like to rename it.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (02:29):
Uh, 100%. So, so my husband came home and he’s a legit musician. He’s a lawyer too, but he’s a legit musician, like, really good. And I, I was a wannabe, you know, and he came home and he was very crushed. He was with his band for over 20 years, and he’s like, they won’t play anything new. We keep playing the same stuff over and over again. I said, I, I, I, I get that. So I’m sitting there, well, we are sitting there with our kids and we’re like, well, let’s start a new band. So I didn’t think this would go anywhere. Anywhere. And we’re like, what would we call it? And I’m like, the, like piti pajamas, you know? Right. And he’s kind of looking at me and the kids giggled. And I’m like, you know, ’cause when I was pregnant, I go, feedy, feedy Feedy Feedy Feedy, and have to rub my ies. So Stupid <laugh>. I just never thought we’d play it. Hello. Fast forward. We absolutely played out <laugh>, you know, so I would go to restaurants and we’d hear bands, and I’d be like, they’re okay. We hear the fees. <laugh>,

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (03:47):
We didn’t exist. So the first night we came home after that, and, uh, he said, you wanna try? I said, sure. I’m in <laugh>. It was horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible. I mean, so I tried a song and it was just horrible. And, um, I’m a Big Prince fan, big Dewey Brothers fan, Kenny Loggins, you know, uh, brutal Mars, you know, uh, Nirvana, you name it. So I’m sitting there, I’m like, what can I sing? You know? So we’re sitting there and I just tanked it tanked it like, like the worst song ever. Right. And, uh, he is like, yeah, <laugh>, I’m not sure. So I stayed up all night long and I’d never heard the song before and I don’t know why I chose it. I chose, um, karma Police.

Matthew Brickman (04:46):
Yeah, yeah.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (04:47):
Great song. Yeah. And so I just sat there and listen, listen, listen. And practice, and practice, practice. Next night he comes down, he’s like, I’m like, can we try one more time? And, uh, he’s like, sure. And so I, I sang it and knocked it outta the park. And he was just like, <laugh>, what,

Matthew Brickman (05:08):
What just happened?

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (05:09):
What just happened? You were awful last night, <laugh>. And you nailed it. So come up anyway. So, um, if I had a band now, what would I name it? That’s a good question. Yeah. Can I give you a few names?

Matthew Brickman (05:27):
Yeah. Gimme two,

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (05:29):
Three.

Matthew Brickman (05:30):
Three. Fine.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (05:35):
Hmm. My dog died this week, so I gotta, I gotta, I gotta give one of the names. Her name Zoe.

Matthew Brickman (05:43):
Okay. Zoe.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (05:46):
Two Stinky Feet.

Matthew Brickman (05:49):
<laugh>. Okay.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (05:50):
Three. I thought I was a band. I

Matthew Brickman (05:56):
Thought I was a a band. That would be the name.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (05:59):
Wouldn’t that be funny?

Matthew Brickman (06:00):
It it, it is. Yeah.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (06:03):
We can tonight. I dunno, I thought it was a band. <laugh>.

Matthew Brickman (06:06):
<laugh>. I thought it was a band. That’s awesome. All right. So, um, this year, this year we’re gonna kick off this year with our interview. This year we’re gonna talk about correlation between divorce and later psychological problems.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (06:23):
Ugh. Beginning, middle, and later. <laugh>.

Matthew Brickman (06:26):
Yeah. Yeah. So I know, at least for me, ’cause I got divorced, it’s 20, 25. I got divorced, I think it was like oh one. And sure. My divorce messed with my head interfered then with me with new relationships and even into my current marriage. And then still working through, you know, the expectations, the assumptions you bring in. And then, you know, it, it messes with your own mental health. And then, you know, I did my own therapy trying to figure out, okay, who am I? What do I like? Like, you know, if I’m gonna share myself with someone, I sort of kind of need to know what, what I am. And like, Hey, this is me. It’s like, well, who are you? I need to be able to answer that question. Right. But how does, like, ’cause you, I believe you’ve never been divorced, right?

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (07:14):
No. Married. 30 years. That’s

Matthew Brickman (07:15):
Awesome. That’s awesome. That’s awesome. So

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (07:19):
Together 30 years.

Matthew Brickman (07:20):
Yeah. So in your practice and then just in life,

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (07:25):
<laugh> talking about, I had some brilliant breakups. <laugh>.

Matthew Brickman (07:29):
Okay.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (07:30):
<laugh>. So I just, uh, what you said just resonated with me. When I got together with my husband, you know, decades ago I had a, um, funny story. True story.

Matthew Brickman (07:45):
Okay.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (07:45):
He was there when I broke up with my boyfriend. ’cause my boyfriend told me he was at a bachelor’s party. And, and I walked into this restaurant and, uh, he was sitting there with a woman, <laugh>, and one of my best friends’ husbands and a girl. I’m like, yeah, this does not look like a bachelor’s party. Right. My now husband saw the whole thing go down <laugh>. Wow. And I just walked up and I said, huh, this is interesting. So I went through that hurt.

Matthew Brickman (08:19):
Got it.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (08:20):
Uh, so I, I know personally the hurt and I actually did not practice family law initially. ’cause when I was with him, it just bugged me every day.

Matthew Brickman (08:31):
Yeah.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (08:32):
Talking to my clients. ’cause they were not healthy situations. I now have a very solid marriage. Of course we have our issues a hundred percent

Matthew Brickman (08:41):
Sure.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (08:42):
Um, we got two kids, uh, recently deceased dog. You know, we, you know, we’ve been through stuff. Yeah. And, um, but watching my clients, um, it’s actually one of my favorite things is to watch a client at the end.

Matthew Brickman (09:04):
Okay.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (09:05):
Where they go through this horrible situation. Awful, awful, awful, awful. I help ’em through it, but then they move forward. So anybody listening to this that has gone through that, it’s awful, awful, awful, awful. And, but then there, there, there is a literally, not to be cliche, but there’s a light at the end of the tunnel. Right. You know, and, um, I, I’ve, I had the pleasure of, um, doing marriages. Uh, one of which, this is one of my favorite stories, if I may. Uh, client of mine came to me, and it was a year after her divorce, a year. She had not dated anybody. And,

Matthew Brickman (09:51):
And

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (09:53):
She came to me and we went to lunch. And our, our girls, I have a daughter. She had a daughter. And that’s how we met. And she’s like, you know, I’m awful. It’s sad. And I’m like, okay. So we went to lunch and I’m sitting at the lunch and I like a lightning bolt hit me. I’m like, I know who you need to meet.

Matthew Brickman (10:14):
Why? No, you’re playing matchmaker.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (10:16):
A hundred percent. True story. True story. So we go to lunch and I’m sitting there and I’m like, you gotta meet this guy. You gotta meet this guy. Three years after that, I did their wedding in Key West <laugh>.

Matthew Brickman (10:32):
Wow.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (10:33):
Yeah. So you never know. So if you’re going through it, um, it’s thick. I mean, gooey, gooey, thick, you know. But, um, even though I haven’t gone through it, I always, I jokingly say, but I, I mean it, I was a good lawyer when I was single better once I got married, even better once I had kids. And I’ve added a new thing to that.

Matthew Brickman (11:00):
Right.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (11:00):
Better that I now have adult. If I was a politician, I would, uh, fight for more support past 18 because, but that’s when it gets really expensive. <laugh>.

Matthew Brickman (11:15):
Yeah. Well, you know, and, and I mean, as, as a mediator, I mean, I’ve, I’ve done some divorces in other states. Um, and like in New York, it goes past 18. Like it’s not

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (11:27):
Really how old.

Matthew Brickman (11:29):
Um, I believe it goes through college.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (11:33):
Uh, that makes,

Matthew Brickman (11:34):
Yeah. Now, now here, here, here’s my most interesting story about support. I did a Canadian divorce many years ago. Love that. They actually used the word magical in their statute.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (11:48):
Did you say magic?

Matthew Brickman (11:48):
They used the word magical. And it says, just because a child born to the parties turns a magical age does not alleviate the financial responsibility to support that child. So Rebecca, child support goes until the child is fully self supporting.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (12:10):
I love it.

Matthew Brickman (12:11):
Right.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (12:12):
I love it.

Matthew Brickman (12:13):
Yeah. Because,

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (12:14):
You know, Florida’s 18 graduate from high school.

Matthew Brickman (12:18):
Yeah.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (12:19):
Done. And I’m like,

Matthew Brickman (12:20):
That’s, I had a mediation just the other day where the mother was like, look, we’ve got, we’ve got two adult children. We still have one. I think the one that was still at the home was 15. Um, and she’s like, they’re in college. I’m having to pay for college. They’re living with me. Do I get some sort of support? And it’s like, unfortunately, no. And she’s like, well, what about alimony? Well, their incomes were virtually the same. And so, and on a 50, 50 times sharing, I think the child support was like, less than $200. And she’s like, but what about the other, the two in college? And I agree

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (12:55):
A

Matthew Brickman (12:56):
Hundred percent. It was like, sorry, you know,

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (12:59):
I, I hear you.

Matthew Brickman (13:00):
Yeah.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (13:01):
I did just it did I really? Where what was that New York, you said?

Matthew Brickman (13:06):
No, we, well, the, the one the other day was not a, no, that one was in Florida.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (13:11):
One that’s adulthood.

Matthew Brickman (13:14):
But, but I’ve done, I’ve done, I’ve done a couple of divorces in New York, and it goes until college, you know, until they’re done with college. Um, and then, and then in Canada, it’s, look, forget about college. They gotta get through college, get a job, become fully self-supporting, and then, and then you’re done with your financial responsibility.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (13:31):
Wow. That’s really exciting. I’m gonna read on that. That’s really interesting. Yeah. ’cause it, you know, I think it’s tragic. It’s like, all right, wash my hands. And it’s like, no, no, no, no. <laugh>, you know. Well, and,

Matthew Brickman (13:48):
And, and look really, I mean, I even look back in my life like at 18, alright, first off, you’re not thinking right. You’re not mature and you’re supposed to pick what you want to go to school for and study to become for the rest of your life. And that’s when, now as a parent, we’re like, okay, we wash our hands of you. I don’t know why it’s a magic age. And of course we have different magic ages, like, okay, 16 to drive 18 to, uh, 18 to like, okay, fine, you’re emancipated. Right? But then 18, you can join the army, but you can’t have a gun until you’re 21. You can’t drink until you’re 21. But you can’t rent a car until you’re 25. But you know what, if you have an adult child, you can insure them until they’re 26. And we’ve got all these weird different dates for maturity. And it’s like, look, I’ve done divorces for 40 and 50 year olds that act like 17 year olds still. Right. Like an age does not equal maturity.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (14:50):
I’m my nephew. And

Matthew Brickman (14:51):
So, you know,

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (14:53):
<laugh>.

Matthew Brickman (14:54):
Yeah. I mean, I think, I think it can play a huge problem. I mean, like divorce and it’s interesting. Divorce and psychological problems, divorce and psychological problems between the, the parents or even divorce and the psychological problems it creates for children.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (15:09):
Well, it’s interesting because, um, I think thank God, uh, or whomever thank thankful that people being more open to counseling and a lot of it is just talking it through. Yes. You know, and for any of you all who are talking to a counselor, if you’re not feeling like it’s helping find someone else, <laugh>, you know, you, you, someone who helps you and you talk to ’em and, and then you grow and you learn and you feel, and, um, you know, I I I psychological impact of a divorce is so heavy. Yeah. Because it’s everything. Yeah. It’s your kids, it’s your family, it’s your money, it’s your house, it’s your stuff. You know, everything is impacted.

Matthew Brickman (16:06):
It’s even time. You know, I had, I, I had a mediation the other day and they were, the, the biggest complaint they had was, we wasted this many years. And it was the, you wasted our time. And it’s the one commodity we can never get more of. You can never make more of, and you can’t get it back. And that was what we were having. Like, you know, the things come and go. Right. But they were really, it was one that, that was very impactful. They were really upset about the wasted time. You wasted this many years of my life.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (16:42):
But, but we got more time. Hopefully.

Matthew Brickman (16:47):
Hopefully.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (16:48):
So what are you gonna do next? Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (16:51):
Well, and so, so you know what’s interesting, Rebecca, with, you know, dealing with, you know, theology of what we do in family law, you know, sometimes people have said Matthew, you know, doing divorce and, you know, tearing apart people, you know, you know, helping people that are, you know, you’re, you’re basically destroying the family unit. Oh. You know, you know, does that wear on you? How does it wear on you? And what I tell people, and then I even tell people in mediation is, look, we are transitioning from one phase of your life to a new phase of your life. It’s not the end. And I, and even when it comes to family, we’re not destroying the family. We’re restructuring the family.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (17:40):
Well, think of, think

Matthew Brickman (17:41):
Of, and when we are, then re when we look at it from that point of view and, and, and whatnot, it gives hope where it doesn’t crush you psychologically. Where then it’s like, ah, we’ve destroyed No, we’re, we’re restructuring. No, it’s not over. No, we’re transitioning.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (18:01):
I look at it as a book.

Matthew Brickman (18:03):
Okay. Like, like a new chapter.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (18:06):
Bingo. You know, you read a book and you finish a chapter like, oh my God, that was so either happy or sad or whatever moved you in that chapter. Oh, there’s another chapter, <laugh> and there’s another chapter. It’s not really the end until you close the book a k death and we’re not there. You know, you got chapters and you keep going and you learn from every chapter truly <laugh>, you know, it, it’s, um, hearing each other. Oh God, what did my son say the other day? It was so brilliant. Um, when someone speaks, uh, listen to understand, not respond, something like that, you know, it’s like, alright, life is speaking to me right now and this is what’s happening and I’m going to listen. And I don’t have to respond necessarily. I can just listen to learn, learn Life and Divorce are like a book.

Matthew Brickman (19:18):
Okay.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (19:19):
Beginning ending. Right.

Matthew Brickman (19:22):
Right.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (19:24):
Not that beginning’s good. <laugh> ending can be a little rough. Um, but in between are chapters. And a chapter may be a child, a job, a friend, um, it’s chapters. And that’s kind of like a marriage, you know, you, you, you got chapters, really good ones. I love chapter two. Oh man, chapter five was hell. <laugh>, you know, you gotta keep reading, get to the end. Right,

Matthew Brickman (20:00):
Right.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (20:01):
And, uh, yeah. I really, I feel like relationships and life and marriages are like a cha a book, and they have different chapters. And I, I really believe that I, you know, I feel I’ve lived it. I’ve seen it. I work it daily as a divorce lawyer and mediator. Um, but what I like is that when going through that chapter, people like you and I get to help people through it. <laugh>, you know, pick it up. This may, this one may be a little thick, it maybe some really bad fish or, you know, or it could be a really good steak, you know, depending on Right. <laugh> or seafood or, you know, you get my point. So

Matthew Brickman (20:52):
Yeah. Depending on what they’re going through.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (20:55):
Right.

Matthew Brickman (20:55):
In that phase or during that chapter.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (20:57):
Correct. Yeah. And the the best thing you can do is walk ’em through it. Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (21:03):
Yeah. Well, and, and you know, sometimes as a mediator, I, I come in at various chapters, like as an attorney, like you said, you get to walk through the chapters with them. You know, for me, I, I like make an appearance in a chapter, um, sometimes to help launch, sometimes to help include, but I come in at different phases. Um, sometimes they come in in multiple chapters. Sometimes they’ll come and they’ll see me, and then they’ll go and do a temporary relief or go do some more discovery, and then they come back and now they’re at a place where now we can close out that chapter and then they can open up a new chapter without me.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (21:40):
Absolutely. Yeah. And it, and it’s, you know, it’s, it’s kind of, and for the individuals going through it, it’s like, just remember there’s a next chapter, you know, what’s next. You know? And who knows what that might be. Yeah. Could be all sorts of different things. It could be a new relationship. It it be rekindling what you had. Right. It be closing the book <laugh>. Yeah, yeah. You know, so it’s, it’s, um, but I think that’s an analogy that resonates with me. Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (22:16):
Yeah. Well, and I know for me, after, after my divorce, um, my next chapter, I’m gonna follow, I’m gonna follow you. I, I, I really like that my next chapter was focusing on being a parent, but also focusing on me. Who am I? Um, so I started to do my own mental health, you know, figuring out, okay, who am I? What has this divorce done to me? Um,

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (22:45):
And what did you find out?

Matthew Brickman (22:47):
Um, I found out that I was not a good husband. I would’ve divorced me <laugh>. Um, in hindsight, um, I was, I was, I, um, I, I was the leader of the family, but I led as a dictator emphasis on Dick more than Tater <laugh>. Um, I was not good. Um, I was very controlling. I was very insecure. I was very codependent, which I took all of those things and put those on my wife. How

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (23:20):
Did you come to that realization? I

Matthew Brickman (23:22):
Mean, that’s, of course she’s going to act or react or respond,

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (23:27):
But, but how did you come to that realization? That’s a huge leap to

Matthew Brickman (23:31):
Be. I mean, it was, it was a lot of therapy. Um, I mean, it was, it was going to therapy. It was, I’m doing, um, act, actually, one of the best therapies I ever had, Rebecca, was when I finally started down my educational path to become a mediator. Uh, but one of the classes that I had to take for my degree was interpersonal conflict. Rebecca, I got a hundred percent in that class. I aced that class. It was the most therapeutic thing because it really was looking deep inside of me and figuring out who I was. One of the, hard to do. Hard to do. Yeah. Very hard to do. But being that it was a class and it was necessary, it made it easier than just going and learning and fixing. It was like, no, I’m studying it. So let me, let me really dig deep.

Matthew Brickman (24:25):
And so that I could do well in the class. I actually had to dig deep. And one of the things that, one of the things that resonated that I, that I learned the most from that class that actually changed was my ex-wife used to always say to them, Matthew, why is everything a joke? Why? Like, can’t you take me serious? So everything is funny to you. Everything is a joke to you. You don’t take anything serious. One of the most in interesting things I learned in that class was, yeah, I used humor and comedy in deflecting from having to face the reality or the pain or the responsibility. And that was one of the things I learned was, wow, that’s, I mean, I, I remember going through the class. I remember when that section, I’m reading that going, I do that all the time. That’s what that is.

Matthew Brickman (25:17):
No idea what that was. I thought, well, okay, you know what? I can just lighten up the mood and we can get through it. And what it was was, it was me deflecting. Well, that took time. Now, once I recognized it, that doesn’t mean that all of a sudden I don’t use it anymore. Because that was sort of, kind of what I always did. But at least being aware of it. Now, when I did it, I was able to catch myself. And then now, now I try not to do it. Now, you know what I’ve learned to do, Rebecca. Hmm. And it’s hard. And, and especially in mediation, comfortable silence.

Matthew Brickman (25:58):
You just sit there quietly and you say nothing. Whereas before, I used to lighten it up with humor and try to get through it. And now, no, we’re gonna hit it head on. We’re gonna engage it. And sometimes it’s just that quiet reflection and it’s not talking and it’s not humor. And, but, but that was some of the mental stuff that I had to go through. One of the other things that I did, I took, I, I actually took, I voluntarily took the court ordered 11 week anger management program that helped me learn what are my triggers? How am I hardwired, am I responding or reacting? And that takes self. And so that was deep learning, self-control. And what I did not know was I was always giving the power over my emotions to other people instead of having self-control. Because here was the deal.

Matthew Brickman (26:56):
I didn’t know what triggered me. I didn’t know what my buttons were, but other people did. And so, you know what, they’d hit those all day long. My ex loved hitting those all day long to get a rise outta me. Well, once I discovered, wow, this is who I am, this is what bothers me, triggers me, okay, well, why? And I’m able to deal with that. Then when someone would come and hit that trigger, I know what that is, guess what, now I can respond, which is thinking and then doing, even if it’s split second, opposed to reacting, which is doing, and then thinking. And those things really helped me with my mental health post-divorce. That over time helped me become a better father because I wasn’t just spouting off and getting upset with the kids helped me become a better, uh, uh, you know, now a better spouse, but also even just a friend, uh, uh, a a a a neighbor. I mean, I remember I had, I had somebody that every time we got together, I would spout off about my ex-wife <laugh>. And I’ll never forget, she said to me, she goes, Matthew, if you mention your ex-wife to me one more time, we’re done.

Matthew Brickman (28:15):
We’re done. Because every time I see you, that’s all you wanna talk about. And I was like, really? She goes, we don’t talk about you. We don’t talk about your kids. We don’t talk about me. All we do is talk about your wife. And you have been divorced from her for years. And so, you know, it, it took people, not not just therapists, but it took people in my circle. It took family. Even family would, I mean, like, my, my family and I were clashing because they’re like, you need to let this go. And I’m like, you don’t understand what I’m going through. And they’re like, we understand it’s destroying you mentally and emotionally, and, and physically, psychologically. And they’re like, we want better for you. You need to let it go. And I’m like, you don’t understand. And they’re like, all we understand is you are not healthy. Your mental health is not there.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (29:10):
So two comments to that. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. Um, I don’t know why I thought of this, but I so imagine you’re at a dining room table and there’s salt and pepper there. Right? Okay. And you really want the salt, and you’re, and it’s just too much. It’s like salt overload, <laugh>, you know, or little salt, little pepper. You’re good. Okay. Number two, when my mother died, um, I had a lot of deaths in my life, even this last week. And, um, when my mother died, I felt compelled to tell her story. And what I went through, every time people would ask, oh, God, how are you doing? What happened to your mom? And same thing a therapist told me. Number one, they’re just being nice. They really don’t wanna know. <laugh>

Matthew Brickman (30:22):
<laugh>, how are you doing? Is it, tell me your life story.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (30:27):
That’s a, like, that’s a, you know, American Hi, how are you? You know, <laugh> that they did we really mean it. <laugh> I love getting funny answers to that question, by the way. Yeah. And, and, and number, number one, they don’t wanna hear it. And number two, every time you tell it, you go through it again.

Matthew Brickman (30:50):
Yeah. No, absolutely. You relive that pain or so, whatever it is.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (30:55):
So this particular counselor said was a grief counselor. ’cause my mom, my dad, my brother, uh, my two best friends from law school I was partners with in a law firm all died within five years. And it was just like, I was like, can this really happen <laugh>, you know,

Matthew Brickman (31:14):
With one person?

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (31:15):
Uh, yeah. And I, so I, I just learned this particular grief counselor, she’s just like, one, they really aren’t asking how you’re doing. And two, they really don’t wanna hear it. And three, don’t relive it. You know? Yeah. And, uh, so, you know, I’ve learned a lot through that. Um, so I switched like a button.

Matthew Brickman (31:42):
Okay.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (31:43):
And I stopped telling the story. And I, I, so I, I made a mantra. She was well cared for. I loved her. That was it. Guess what? So much better. Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (31:57):
It’s like the Cliff notes.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (31:59):
Yeah. It was the cliff notes. Since she was so cared for, you know, you know, I just, it just, boop, what are you gonna say to that?

Matthew Brickman (32:08):
Well, yeah, yeah.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (32:09):
You know, so if you’re going through a divorce, not everybody who asks you how are you doing, they don’t necessarily really, really wanna know.

Matthew Brickman (32:19):
They don’t need all the go details

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (32:21):
Because it’s awful. It’s called divorce. That’s a awful word. <laugh>. It’s like, you know, puppies and rainbows and butterflies. You know, I mean, that’s hard. Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (32:36):
It’s not like the was the most exciting, most wonderful experience I’ve ever had. My entire life. Said nobody about divorce. Right?

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (32:45):
No. Not even like, you know, the best picture this year. You know, was it the best I could tell you my thoughts, but Yeah. Do you? No, just, Hey.

Matthew Brickman (32:57):
Yeah.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (32:58):
<laugh>, move on. And, um, and that’s hard. It almost feels like for me, ’cause I’m, I’m very much a talker and feeler, so it’s very hard to just kind of close the window. Right,

Matthew Brickman (33:12):
Right.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (33:13):
Um, and not let the air come through, but sometimes close the window, you know, and just be like, I mean, not to everybody. I mean, you got your few that you can really share with. Sure. Sure. But your next door neighbor who you see every few months and, uh, may ask to grab your paper when you’re out town.

Matthew Brickman (33:37):
Yeah.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (33:37):
They don’t need to know. Yeah. You know, your buddy, you

Matthew Brickman (33:41):
Go to Publix to get your meat and the deli, the deli manager says, Hey, how’s your day? You don’t need to overshare.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (33:49):
So, my favorite thing, so when I’m, I, of course we’re asked that all the time. Right. How are you doing? Yeah. So I, I have a few different phrases I use now, and, and nobody says anything. Once, once you say it, they’re just like, woo. Yeah. I’m like, you know, it’s, it’s like one of those, um, I can’t complain or, or, you know, uh, been better, you know, or, you know, just, just one of those, I don’t say fine. Yeah. Not fine right now. Yeah. Or I’ll even say it’s been a hard day. Yeah. Hope, you know, move on. Yeah. I don’t tell ’em why <laugh>, I want to, ’cause that’s my personality. Right. But do they really wanna hear it? And do I <inaudible> the pain of telling them what I’m going through?

Matthew Brickman (34:49):
Yeah. Yeah. Do you wanna re you know, I, it resonated with me when you said, you know, do you want it to retell it? Do you wanna relive that right. Over and over and over again?

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (35:00):
’cause you can.

Matthew Brickman (35:00):
That’s really good. Yeah. ’cause

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (35:03):
You, you can, because you were asked how you’re doing all day long, but do you really wanna do that? You know, and I, I, I’ll never forget. So one of my dear, dear, dear, dear, dear, dear, lovely friends, and they asked me about my mom. And I had just learned that technique when she asked me. Right. Rebecca, don’t do it. <laugh> don’t fall into the trap. Just, I said, you know, and I did my phrase, I had a mantra, and I recommend that. Right. You just have a phrase because your brain is wired a certain way. So I’m just like, you know what? She’s really well cared for. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Matthew Brickman (35:49):
Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (35:50):
And we moved on. Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (35:52):
Yeah.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (35:53):
You know, that, that that’s really all she wanted to hear, <laugh>. And that’s all I needed to say. Yeah. So I recommend to people going through these difficult times to think about that. Um, I shared with you, Matthew, uh, oh, geez, here it comes. Oh, you can edit this out, right. <laugh>,

Matthew Brickman (36:14):
Just tell me.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (36:16):
I mean, my dog died right. Last week.

Matthew Brickman (36:20):
Sorry.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (36:22):
Oh, I haven’t, I mean, and when I say a dog

Matthew Brickman (36:27):
Family member

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (36:29):
Oh, oh, multiplied. Yeah. We were never apart. 24 7. She went to work with me. I changed grocery stores. I went to a store that she could go to my bank, <laugh>, she just was with me 24 7. And then she got cancer. Yeah. Uh, you know, she was 14 plus years. Um, but do people really wanna hear the story? Yeah. No. They just like, and I’ve literally had the teller of my bank come out of her little spot and gimme a hug. I mean, you know,

Matthew Brickman (37:09):
But you’ve got some of those special people like that though, that, I mean, look, it would sort of be like, if, if you brought in your kid every time you went to the bank and they gave him a lollipop something and something happened to your child, it’d be the same thing. I mean, there are those special people that you could, you know, tell, and they’re there to comfort you. But not everybody. But, you know, there are those people.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (37:32):
Good point. I mean, but, uh, it, but then I relive it.

Matthew Brickman (37:39):
Yeah, no, I know. I know.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (37:40):
And, uh, and, uh, I mean, I, I don’t even wanna call her a dog. She was, she was Zoe. She was my best friend. Yep. And I, my husband was so cute. I’m always like, I’m so sorry. You’re my best friend. Sure she is. But that’s okay. <laugh>.

Matthew Brickman (37:56):
Yep.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (37:57):
And, uh, everybody got it. Who knew me. They, they, they knew. Um, any hoo-ha. So,

Matthew Brickman (38:05):
Well, and, and, and, and I, I, I understand that. ’cause you know, I, I, kids are grown. Your kids are grown. You know, I’ve got, I’ve got my wife. And so, uh, a number of years ago, my wife, um, very, you know, she was vice president of a bank. She was lots of responsibility, very stressed. She ended up twice in the hospital for stress. And I’m like, okay, we need to do something to help this. So I got us a little dog, and I got a little teacup Yorkie, cutest little three pound, two and a half, three pound dog full of love. And of course, being small, we took her everywhere. We take her on the plane, we took her to New York, to Central Park. We took her to Pittsburgh. We took her, we even took her to Vegas and drove down to Scottsdale with her. I mean, we took her everywhere because, you know, she was our little girl.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (38:55):
That’d be a good movie.

Matthew Brickman (38:56):
And we woke up one day and she could barely move. And it was cancer. And we, and, and we did, I mean, Rebecca, we did everything. We had a holistic vet. We did, we did. We did laser.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (39:12):
I did, I did, I did, uh, what’s it called? Acupuncture.

Matthew Brickman (39:15):
I that Yes. Yeah. We did the acupuncture. We did the Chinese medicine. We even, we even spent a thousand plus dollars and got a handheld cold red laser to help with her joints. And we’re doing laser treatments on her back and her leg trying to heal her, trying to extend her life and trying to take away the pain as long as possible. And it finally got to a point where the vet’s like, you know, next chapter, this chapter needs to end. And, and so it was, and, and it’ll be, um, it was, it was seven years in December since we had to put her down. Um, or No, no, no, no, no. Take that back. I take that back. It was, it was four years. She was only seven years old. But we had to put her down December of 2020. Um, and it was so hard.

Matthew Brickman (40:04):
I mean, look, we were, we, and of course we were coming out of c on lockdown. And we were all, we were working from home that she was always like, we just like you. 24 7. We were around her. Even, it even got to the point, Rebecca, where I actually officiated my wife’s sister. So my sister-in-law’s wedding. And my wife was not able to go to her wedding because our dog required 24 hour care. So I got to go to her sister’s wedding ’cause I’m officiating. And so we had to hold up the phone. We, we, we had the phone so she could FaceTime to be part of the wedding, but we were not gonna leave the dog. And people. And, and look, there were some people that didn’t understand. They’re like, it’s a dog. They’re like, you don’t understand. It’s not a dog. And like you said, it’s, it’s, it’s a part of you.

Matthew Brickman (40:53):
And so, no, I I I, I understand that. And, and yeah. You know, for us it was the next chapter. It, it’s weird ’cause you know, it’s been four years and even last night, I remember it last night, we were, we were watching a show and got up and I just said, you know, I miss Piper baby girl, little Piper baby girl. And it’s one of those things where, where, I mean, she’s a screensaver on my computer. She’s on my phone. Like, you know, I don’t have my wife as a screensaver. I don’t have my kids as a screensaver. I have paper as my screensaver. So No, I totally get it. I totally get it.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (41:32):
Same. And it, and it was so sweet. ’cause her first scare was about two weeks ago. And, uh, we were out in Colorado for a ski vacation. Didn’t happen. We were there the first day and the dog started calling and said, I think I need to put your dog down. Yeah. She, she’s not good. And we’re like, what? So we all hopped on the plane, you know, my daughter, and call it, we all hopped on the plane and flew down. My, my son was on his way to Auburn to go see his girlfriend. And, uh, he’s at University of Florida. He turned around <laugh>, we all met at the hospital, and she lived, we got an extra 10 days we didn’t anticipate. Yeah. And, uh, it was great. 10 days, like you said, thousands of dollars later. Ridiculous. Yeah. But, um, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t change it.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (42:23):
Uh, yeah. And, uh, and then she took another turn and we were like, this is, we gotta get real <laugh>. You know, kids came back again, <laugh> flew. Drove. Sure. And so, you know what my kids did, and I would recommend this to anybody who’s going through a hard time divorce, death. My kids came up with this. Um, they planned the perfect day for Zoe, and it just was so beautiful. Uh, we did everything she loved. She couldn’t walk anymore. She couldn’t stand, she couldn’t. But we, we got a stroller, put her in it and took her to her favorite parks, her favorite lakes, her favorite restaurant, <laugh>, you know, like everywhere. And it was the perfect Zoey day, and it was just, it was the last day. Yeah. And, uh, you know, so I don’t know if you’re going through a divorce and plan a perfect you day. Yeah. You know what, it’s good for

Matthew Brickman (43:27):
The mental health. Like Yeah.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (43:29):
Yes. Lighten it up,

Matthew Brickman (43:30):
Check out, and then it’s okay to check out of reality so that you can gain a sense of control so you can come back and deal with it. Empowered, not from a point of weakness, making bad decisions that are gonna affect you for the rest of your life. Right.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (43:47):
A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And it, it, it, it’s easier said than done. Yep.

Matthew Brickman (43:52):
But, but planning a day that is easy. That, that is not an easier said than done. That actually is easy. You know, whether it’s spa, whether it’s, you know, go to the beach, whatever.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (44:04):
Yeah. And, uh, yeah. So I hope everybody can, just listening to this, if you’re going through a hard time, plan your perfect day. Yeah. Whatever that is. You know, and I’m sure if you’re listening, I would think that you have things that you want to do that you never do for yourself. Go do it <laugh>. Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (44:29):
You know, you know,

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (44:30):
Go do it.

Matthew Brickman (44:31):
Going back to something I had said earlier about, about the couple last week that, you know, arguing over time, you know, time is the only commodity we cannot get back and you can’t make more of. So yeah. If there’s something that you want to do or something that you need for your own mental health, do it because you’re not gonna get the time back. Spend the time, you know, take that time, whatever it may be. And it may require spend some money, get a babysitter or, you know, do do something so that you can have that, that you day. You know, one of the interesting things, Rebecca, too, that I learned was I wasn’t taking care of me. So my ex-fiance, not my wife, but girlfriend before I got married, she actually said to me, she said, Matthew, you will never be the parent that your kids need you to be until you can get over yourself and over your ex.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (45:29):
Hmm.

Matthew Brickman (45:30):
And it was interesting because I couldn’t get over my ex, which meant I couldn’t deal with my own issues, which meant then I couldn’t be the parent that my kids were. And guess what that meant? That I couldn’t be with her either. And we ended up going our separate ways. Right. And so as people are going through divorce and, you know, having to transition from, you know, a a lot of times, like being a full-time parent to now you’re a 50 50 parent, like, it’s like, well, okay, what do I do with this time on my hands? One of the things that I, and and I, I like that, that thought of, you know, do that day, because that can sort of launch like, okay, well if you’re gonna be doing your parenting plan, and if now you’re gonna have a little bit more time, well, if you start now figuring out and taking care of you, well then that can also carry over into that transition that, Hey, look for the two nights a week that you may not have the kids go to the gym, go get a facial, go walk on the beach.

Matthew Brickman (46:30):
Like, take the me time. It’s okay. I run into so many people in mediation that say, look, I would do anything for my kids. I’m like, but what would you do for yourself? Nothing. It’s all about my kids. And I’m like, in order to be the best version of you for your kids, you may need to take care of yourself and you may need to take care of your mental health so you can be there properly for your kids. Right. I mean, do, do you run into that as an attorney? I know I do as a, as a media, but you’re walking through people through the entire process.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (47:03):
A hundred percent. That totally resonates. And I, I, I think that resonates in life. Yeah. You know, just as a human being, I mean, we all are constantly, you know, next, next, next, you know, work <laugh>, you know, you know, whatever it is. And, uh, yeah. Sometimes we’re the last, you know, and maybe we should not be Yeah. As a thing. Well, Matthew, I always have such a blast talking to you.

Matthew Brickman (47:39):
No, it’s been, it’s been good seeing you again.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (47:42):
Podcast. I hope there’s a fourth. That’s my lucky number four.

Matthew Brickman (47:46):
Okay, good. All right. Well,

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (47:48):
<laugh>,

Matthew Brickman (47:49):
Look, we’re, we’re in the first quarter. 25, 26 will be around the corner. Right.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (47:53):
Well, let’s, let’s ask the listeners and viewers, what do you want to hear from us?

Matthew Brickman (47:59):
Yeah, tell us

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (48:01):
If we were, uh, hopefully gonna do another one of these. What do you got

Matthew Brickman (48:08):
Right

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (48:09):
That we could do? Um, you know, is it cleaning your house? I don’t know why I just said that. <laugh>,

Matthew Brickman (48:16):
<laugh>.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (48:19):
I’m just looking around, you know, you know what, what, what would, what do you want to hear from us? Because Matthew really known each other a long time, but for these podcasts, and we’re getting to know all our listeners from this. So what do you wanna hear?

Matthew Brickman (48:38):
Yeah. Let us, let us know what you want to hear. We, you we’ll impart whatever wisdom we can conjure together, <laugh>,

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (48:46):
<laugh>,

Matthew Brickman (48:48):
And just dump truck it on you. So <laugh>. Yeah. Let us know.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (48:51):
Alright, thank you.

 

Matthew Brickman:
Occasionally Sydney and I will be releasing Q&A bonus episodes where we’ll answer your questions and give you a personal shoutout.

Sydney Mitchell:
If you have a comment or question regarding anything that we discuss, email us at info@ichatmediation.com that’s info@ichatmediation.com and stay tuned to hear your shout out and have your question answered here on the show.

Matthew Brickman:

For more information about my services or to schedule your mediation with me, either in person or using my iChatMediation Virtual Platform built by Cisco Communications. Visit me online at www.iMediateInc.com. Call me at 561-262-9121, Toll-Free at 877-822-1479 or email me at MBrickman@iChatMediation.com.