Conversation With Rebecca Palmer Esq. On Current Divorce Trends

Sydney Mitchell:

Hi. My name is Sydney Mitchell.

Matthew Brickman:

Hi, I’m Matthew Brickman, Florida Supreme court mediator. Welcome to the Mediate This! Podcast where we discuss everything mediation and conflict resolution.

 

 

Matthew Brickman (00:16):
I am joined here today with Rebecca Palmer. Rebecca, uh, welcome back to the show, uh, podcast. You were here, actually you were actually here one year ago tomorrow. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. I went back and I was looking at the emails and stuff, so yeah, it was a year ago that you were on, um, and we had Interesting, yeah, we had a great discussion about our careers background, um, your band. Uh, but for the listeners that, um, have not heard that episode or aren’t familiar with your work, tell everybody a little bit about your firm area focus.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (00:50):
You bet. Thank you for this opportunity. My name is Rebecca L. Palmer. I, this is what I do. I’ve been doing divorce law for about 30 years now. Um, I I, it’s a strange calling, but it’s one of my colleagues <laugh> and, uh, I’m a, a mom, a daughter, a sister. Um, you know, I, I really thrive in what I do. I worked for a large law firm for about 20 years. I was an equity partner there, and then I finally had the es, can I say that on Air <laugh> to, uh, start my own firm. And so I did. And, um, now I have my own firm. I’ve had, uh, my neighbors, my gym buddies as clients. I’ve had Elan Woods and people who live in London and around the world as my clients. So, quite a variety.

Matthew Brickman (01:46):
Yeah. And you’re in Orlando, correct?

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (01:49):
I am. I’m in Orlando, Florida, right downtown. Um, anybody who knows Orlando, we call it the Copper Whopper. It’s this building that’s like tougher in color. It’s been, it’s been around forever. So I’m a Copper Whopper downtown by Lake Eola.

Matthew Brickman (02:04):
Oh, that’s funny. So in, um, in West Palm Beach, they’ve had a, a solid black building. It’s, I mean, I’m going back all the way to when I was a kid and would come here and visit my grandparents. Uh, it’s a solid black building. It was called the Darth Vader Building.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (02:19):
Oh, that’s funny.

Matthew Brickman (02:20):
Yeah. And so That’s funny. Yeah. And my, I think

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (02:23):
My, my name is happier than that one. <laugh>.

Matthew Brickman (02:25):
Yeah, yeah. Copper Whopper Darth Vader building. It’s, yeah. <laugh>, so that’s interesting.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (02:31):
Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (02:32):
Um, and, and how long,

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (02:34):
And it, and it’s interesting ’cause downtown has changed so much. It makes me, uh, a lot of downtown cities now make me sad. And that, that the homeless population so large. Right. You wanna help, I mean, the way you can, but it, it, it’s real <laugh>.

Matthew Brickman (02:52):
Yeah. So, so how long have you been, uh, you said you were an equity partner, then you started your own firm. How long have you been, uh, you know, had had your own firm?

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (03:01):
Good question. So probably 20 and 30. So 20 years.

Matthew Brickman (03:04):
Okay.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (03:05):
A big firm, and then it got going on 10 online.

Matthew Brickman (03:09):
Okay. And how many people are you working with? How many are working for you? Like staff

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (03:15):
Wise? One of most beautiful things about working at a large law firm, as I created the team, they didn’t do family law. And so I was able to really fuel out how many lawyers I needed and paralegals I needed, and assistance I needed. And, um, the recession hit while I was an equity partner there. And, um, so then a lot of real estate lawyers needed some work. So I had, I grew exponentially during that timeframe. I don’t wanna be big, I like being small. I like about three lawyers, paralegal, and legal assistant. Okay. That’s, that’s my sweet spot.

Matthew Brickman (03:53):
Yeah. And so you said, you know, your, your diverse clients can be anywhere from a neighbor all the way to somebody across the pond. Uh, um, so how, like, it’s easy to find you when you’re a neighbor, but how do they find you with a firm, you know, across the pond, around the world? How do they

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (04:13):
I think, I think because of my history, like, I’ve had people call me and they’re like, oh, you did this case. Uh, we would like to interview you. Okay. You know, so across the palm calls for those reasons. ’cause they heard I did a, you know, a, a case that was renowned. Yeah. And, um, and then my ne my neighbors and my friends often a mistake. I represented more neighbors than I ever should have <laugh>. Right. But, um, normally when I offer to help a neighbor, I think it’s gonna settle amicably, and then sometimes I’m surprised it doesn’t. Right. So then I’m oopsy Oopsy.

Matthew Brickman (04:58):
Right. So, um, so you and I, we, we actually, uh, just came back from the annual marital Yes. Family Law review course in Orlando. I was, this was great. Yeah. I was up in your neck of the woods. Um, while I was there, I spoke with a number of attorneys, um, and it was interesting. They said either they’re busier than busy or it was interesting. A lot of them said, I’m as busy as I want to be. Nobody though said, yeah, I’m sitting around twiddling my thumbs. I wish I had some work. Um, so were

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (05:31):
They all telling the truth, <laugh>?

Matthew Brickman (05:33):
Yeah. Yeah. I think they were. I mean, they were all, honestly, we were, you know, talking about different cases and stuff. Um, so I’ve, I’ve read, I’ve, I’ve seen it online, um, and I’ve heard it in the air, um, just recently. So I’m interested to find out. But January is often referred to as a divorce month. Um, so like why, um, I mean, are there trends that you’ve seen for that? Um, and then, um, well let’s, let’s start with that question then. I’ve got a follow up question after that. So, I mean, yeah. So divorce month, why, why divorce month? What have you seen?

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (06:12):
So, Matt, it’s interesting because when I was a young lawyer, um, you know, I I we had more access to the court. If you had an emergency, you could go to a hearing. Yeah. So, during Thanksgiving, Christmas, I had no holidays. I just, I was running to court <laugh>, you know, uh, 30 years ago. And now, uh, that doesn’t happen. If you have a, an emergency, you don’t get to court the next week, um, unless you’re on fire. And so, um, so what’s happened is people have realized that I think and understand, okay, nothing’s gonna happen during November or December like it used to. And so now it is, alright, I’m gonna get past the holidays, which I get, I mean, divorce is hard. Any way you look at it. And, and I’m gonna get past Thanksgiving. I’m gonna get past Christmas, new year, new me, you know, and then, and, and then, um, the phone start ringing, you know, uh, people are ready to have a new beginning.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (07:31):
And, um, something I’ve always wanted to do, I haven’t met, but I really want to is, um, I wanna have a Valentine’s Day party at my office where people who’ve gone through a divorce and come together and hang out. Right. So I’m gonna make that happen. That’s interesting. Eventually, but, because I think that’s the same thing. ’cause ’cause they go through Thanksgiving and then you go through Christmas, they go through New Year’s and then all of a sudden it’s Valentine’s Day, you know, and, uh, it, it, it’s a lot, you know, um, none of us like those big hurdles and, uh, part of my job and what we do is to get people through those.

Matthew Brickman (08:15):
Right. Right. So what’s interesting, so for me it’s um, you know, as a mediator. Um, and I may maybe it’s a little bit different for you. ’cause like when people come in to you, you are usually, well, alright, lemme, lemme put it this way. I am usually a number of months out or so after they engage you. Um, and so for me as a mediator, January, and this is why I thought this was fascinating divorce month, because looking at my entire year and how many mediations I conduct and stuff, January is, is my lightest month of mediation. So maybe they’re coming, maybe they’re coming and hiring you, getting the ball rolling because come March, April and May, it’s really busy. Now here’s what’s interesting. And, and that’s right. Yeah. And so I just pulled up my, my statistics for last year. ’cause you know, we’re, we’re February now 2024. So looking at last year, and I can go back for each of the years, but in the last quarter, so last year I did 238 mediations. In the last quarter, Rebecca, I did 81. Between Thanksgiving and Christmas I did 45. So for me, I see people and, and this is what I hear from people generally. Oh, that interesting.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (09:51):
Yeah. This is

Matthew Brickman (09:52):
Interesting. Yeah. So, so maybe from a, from a lawyer part, like you’re busy, like first of the year, for me, what I hear is, is a lot of times people are like, okay, Thanksgiving’s here. I’m gonna give it my all to make this marriage work. And they get together with family. Now, even in the best of marriages, things can go wrong. At Thanksgiving, you can say something, do something, show up late, burn a dish, talk, politics, religion, something goes on. Right. Bring somebody that then nobody else wants there. Something happens. And so then it’s like, that’s it. I’m getting divorced before the new year. No, you’re not. But they’re like, well, let’s get into mediation. I mean, I, my last mediation of the year that’s really interesting was December 30th. It was a Saturday, December 30th going, we need to get this done before the beginning of the year.

Matthew Brickman (10:42):
And I’m like, well, you’re not gonna get divorced. They said, but we want to get finality. Yes. They’re not gonna get in front of a judge for their final hearing before the end of the year, but they want to get closure. They want to get all their paperwork done, negotiations, things signed. So for me that’s so interesting. It’s different than, so when I, so when I saw this, I’m going divorce month for me and like the first two weeks of January I’m like, you know, I’m going, okay, good. Now for me, I’m going, I get a breather like, great. Now come mid-January, it just picked up and I am solid. And there’s like, like even tomorrow, tomorrow’s Sunday, I’m working tomorrow because I don’t have any openings during the week.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (11:25):
Matthew, I’m literally trying to wrap my arms around this. Yeah. Because it’s very different Yeah. As a litigator. But I, and

Matthew Brickman (11:34):
I think they’re engaging you first and then by the time they get to me, then we’re busy for mediation. I don’t know.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (11:43):
That’s interesting. I think I, you know, well think about new year’s resolutions, right? New beginnings in life, what you want, you know, and if you’re in an unhappy marriage, and I’m so sorry for everyone who’s hearing this Yeah. Who has been or is in one of those situations. Yeah. You know, um, I tell my kids, quite frankly, the most, they get the big no pressure. But the biggest decision you make is who you marry. Yeah. You know? And, uh, and, and get entwined with that. Um, so in my world, uh, I find that it really picks up, like, like I said, when I first started practicing, it didn’t, I think it’s also access to the courts.

Matthew Brickman (12:25):
Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (12:26):
Because it used to be, I mean, if you had an emergency, you got in back in the day, you know, three decades ago.

Matthew Brickman (12:33):
Yeah. I saw you

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (12:34):
An emergency. Now you don’t. Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (12:37):
Yeah. There’s, yeah. Well, and, and when I really saw an uptick at the end of the year, it was interesting. It was around 2019 and that was when the alimony law changed. And alimony was no longer because, you know, the next year it wasn’t gonna be taxable or tax deductible. I was so jam packed because people were trying, because it, it was, you had to at least have your, your, you know, an agreement. Maybe not. It wasn’t finalized, but you had to have it. And, and I was, I, I remember I was in a law firm on a Saturday with the attorneys and we were trying, like, they were like, we need to get this done. Saying to the client’s going, you want this done for the whole taxable tax deductible? And that seemed to sort of just, it’s been that way for the past number of years. It’s, it’s, so again, when I saw January is divorce month, I’m going That’s interesting. Um, because again, as a mediator it’s different.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (13:41):
I think it’s also, you know, resolutions.

Matthew Brickman (13:44):
Yep.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (13:45):
You know, what do you wanna do in your new year? You know? Yeah. If, if you’re not happy, yeah. You wanna change things. And, um,

Matthew Brickman (13:53):
Do you think 2020 had something to do with that? Because, you know, that’s, that sort of just made everyone really appreciate life sort of slow down, sort of gained different perspectives and maybe resolutions maybe have become more like, alright, you know what, I just wanna be happy. And so they’re making, are you talking courses? Yeah.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (14:17):
Okay. So no covid messed up everything,

Matthew Brickman (14:20):
Correct. No, no, no. It messed it up. But it also No, all messed up. But it also changed perspectives.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (14:26):
Like students, I, I really can’t wait to read some brilliant psychologists that will figure out to study this. Yep. I mean, my kids, my daughter was a senior in high school, no prom. Yeah. No high school speech, nothing, you know, you know, didn’t go to the school, got at, you know, UCLA didn’t go. Yep. You know, ’cause there was nobody there. Yeah. You know, I mean, it just was like, yeah,

Matthew Brickman (14:57):
You know, my daughter and, um, my, my daughter got married in 2020 and we were limited Oh. To 50 people, you know, and, and like family couldn’t even travel because it was on lockdown. Wow. So, and, and it was either the month before or the month after she graduated from college. So she had a virtual graduation. We were able to have a limited gathering. But yeah, I mean, it, it threw everyone for a tizzy, but it also slowed everything down. I think it slowed because one of the things that I saw, you know, when we were on lockdown and we, and we were doing virtual mediations, I would go out on long walks. And when I talk long walks five to 10 miles a day, and I saw families bike riding, I saw people in front yards throwing balls. Yeah. And I think it’s sort of gave people Yeah. So there’s the ding, you know, it, it, it gave people a different perspective. But I think that that perspective on life going, I just, I, I wanna be happy. You know, I think that that resolution, like you’re saying sort of like really picked up going, you know, it’s New Year’s resolution, let’s get this thing started or get this thing done. Let’s start brand new.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (16:08):
And Matthew, I can’t even tell you how crazy my life was during Covid. Yeah. I mean, it was like literally we were doing, um, what’s it called? Not you do like a whole design on a computer of like who could be where at what time? At the house?

Matthew Brickman (16:27):
<laugh>. Oh yeah. You’re doing, you’re doing scheduling like that.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (16:31):
It was, it was ridiculous. Yeah. I mean it was like

Matthew Brickman (16:33):
Scheduling for a, what did they call that? Um, six feet apart. Uh, social distancing.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (16:40):
Yeah. It was nuts. Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (16:41):
It was like a social distancing calendar.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (16:43):
It was, I’m like, oh, oh, okay. So we’re doing this in a married life. Yeah, yeah. You know, so it, it was, it was rough. And so I think now, um, but I felt this, my whole career that January is definitely a can breathe. Yeah. I’m starting differently. I’m doing something different. And, uh, I, I’m, I’m not a promoter. Anybody comes to me and says, should I get a divorce? Not get a divorce? I, I don’t answer that question.

Matthew Brickman (17:14):
Right. Yeah. That’s, that’s, that is an individual that, you know, you’ve got a reflect a hundred percent. See what is what it is a un

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (17:23):
Decide and then I’ll take you there. Yeah. You know? Alright, so, and

Matthew Brickman (17:26):
Uh, so, so here’s my follow up question then. So, and then this goes right into what you’re saying about someone goes, Hey look, you know, should I, should I not? So what challenges, you know, so if, if January is typically, you know, a divorce month and that seems to be a trend and, you know, for, for attorneys, what challenges are you finding that spouses are facing then during this sort of rush, I guess, or, you know, yeah.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (17:55):
New beginnings. Okay. Uh, where’s my career? Am I secure enough to do this?

Matthew Brickman (18:03):
Okay.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (18:05):
Um, how are my kids at this stage of life? Is this a good stage or you’re not a good stage to be doing this? Um, just where am I gonna live? <laugh>,

Matthew Brickman (18:20):
That’s a big one right now because of the homes and rents and the cost of, so much of it is where am I gonna land? How am I gonna pay rent? You know, even how do I keep the home refinanced And now I can’t even afford it because the rates are much higher. And I, you know, those are the things I hear. Well.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (18:39):
Well, it’s funny too, you know, where like your kids graduate, you think you should move. Right? Not necessarily. You, you want ’em to have a home to come back to.

Matthew Brickman (18:51):
That’s a good point.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (18:53):
And so it’s like, I, I thought for sure our kids were gonna move and I would be ready to move, you know, ize and they gave pledge in, and now I’m like, wait, I want ’em to be able to come home.

Matthew Brickman (19:05):
Right.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (19:06):
You know, so rethinking that and um, and when your kid goes to college, it doesn’t mean they just go away. There’s still issues.

Matthew Brickman (19:18):
<laugh>, they’re always your kids. Alright, so, so let me, let me ask you about another trend that Yes, sir. Seems to, I don’t, I don’t know. Let’s see what, let’s see where we, where does Florida fall nationally when we talk about divorce rates?

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (19:35):
That’s interesting. ’cause I’m surprised how high it is here.

Matthew Brickman (19:39):
I just Googled it. This is interesting. We’re number six. That’s not high at all. I mean, granted, we’re in the top 10. We’re not even in the top five. You know who number one is? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, strangely enough. I, I would’ve thought, okay, if it’s not,

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (19:53):
I wouldn’t guess California.

Matthew Brickman (19:54):
I would guess California or New York. Uh, it’s Nevada.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (20:01):
What?

Matthew Brickman (20:02):
Yeah, like I have no, alright, watch. It’s so random. Okay. Yeah. But number two is the most shocking. It’s Oklahoma, which <laugh> I know. And then, okay, number three, I’m, I’m looking at the list going, wait a second. Number three is Wyoming, then what? Then Alabama, then Arkansas, and then Florida.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (20:26):
So when I was growing up in Lincoln, Nebraska, uh, good cornhusker, I did not know anybody divorced. Little nobody. And it wasn’t until I went to college that I met people with divorced parents. Isn’t that funny? I mean, that’s not that long ago, right? I mean, well now that I’m about to say the year it is that long ago. 1969 was when I was born. But, um, uh, divorces didn’t happen. And, and now it’s like, you know, uh, my friends, my neighbors, my wife, I’m like, my family, you know, it’s happening. I would’ve thought Flora would be higher.

Matthew Brickman (21:15):
I mean, I mean the top 10. Although,

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (21:17):
Although, although taking the intellectual moment, uh, you know, flora, you come down here and you retire <laugh>.

Matthew Brickman (21:25):
Well, but there’s a lot, there’s a lot of people, I do a lot of divorces of people that the kids, you, you were mentioning, the kids have grown up, they’ve now gone to college and they look at each other going, we have nothing in common. We grew apart, didn’t grow together and, and getting divorced. A lot of ’em, I’m doing a lot in their sixties, seventies, eighties. And, and a lot of it, Rebecca, I’m going that,

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (21:48):
That’s just sad.

Matthew Brickman (21:49):
Well, well, and a lot of it I’m going, you don’t like, and they’re both on social security and going, you don’t have enough money to get divorced <laugh>, because just like you were saying, one of the concerns is, where am I gonna live? You, they’re, they’re like, there’s not enough money to go around. I actually had a divorce a number of years ago. They were in their eighties. And I actually, we actually had the conversation when we had their financial affidavits said, you guys can’t afford to get divorced. There’s not enough money to go around. And so they, they ended up abating it. They said, okay, nevermind. We’re gonna cancel it. One of the first, I don’t, what do they call it? I think I, there there’s a term for the older people getting divorced. But when I was contracting the courthouse, I actually had a guy, uh, they were in their eighties. Um, and I asked the guy, I said, I said, I said, so, you know, you guys have been together since he said grade school.

Matthew Brickman (22:44):
And I said to him, I said, luck with all due respect, but till death do us part is not that far away. Like <laugh>. I, I said that to him, Rebecca. I said, and I said, I said, but why? Like, I’m a young mediator at that, at that time and I’m just like curious. And I’m like, why? And the husband and the wife both looked at each other and it was in, it was like they said at the same time, it was like in stereo. You know what they said? We just want to die happy. And I thought that was sad.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (23:19):
That’s interesting. So I have, I have, I have two stories to dovetail on that. Okay. So one was I met this very, very nice man, client of mine. And he is like, I’m gonna be generous. I’m just gonna be so generous. You know, I’m giving her half of everything <laugh>. And I’m giggling thinking, okay, that’s what she’s entitled to. <laugh>. You know, but he was just like, he felt very proud of himself. Yeah. That he was gonna give her half ’cause she was a stay at home, et cetera. And I’m like, okay, that’s what you gonna do. <laugh>. Like,

Matthew Brickman (24:02):
Thank you for playing.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (24:04):
Thank you for playing <laugh>. And then the second one, this is, this is crazy Matthew. So, um, second one, I have this client, I think she’s paranoid. She’s like, we were gonna stay at a hotel the night before the mediation. We’re gonna do this and that, or we’re gonna be in secret cars. And I’m like, this is too much. And she said, I want you to do a body scan of him when he comes in. We’re talking literally like 80 over 85. Okay. And, um, I did it, you know, if your client says do that, you do it. He came in and he was packing and he had a gun <laugh>. And I was just like, what, what in the, what <laugh>, you know? So you gotta you gotta be very forward thinking and open-minded about what could happen. People with marriages. Yeah. Because it it it it is very intense. Yeah. Love’s intense. The breakups are are intense tens you got you gotta be in tune.

Matthew Brickman (25:22):
Yeah. Yeah. Everything is just amplified.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (25:26):
That’s the word.

Matthew Brickman (25:27):
Yeah. Everything’s amplified. Um, which is why, and, and, and you had, you had, uh, you had mentioned like in the past, you know, emergency, like they would, you know, used to file emergency motions for emergency hearings and stuff and to the court they have a completely different idea of what an emergency should be. But to a party going through it, everything is so amplified. Everything correct. Is an emergency.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (25:55):
I think, I think what we have to tell your listeners and viewers is there’s always hope. Oh yeah. And there’s always ambition and there’s always things you can do. Yeah. And uh, you know, um, you and I see a lot of weird stuff and we look through the factors and we look through 50 50 and we look through divorce rates, but anything’s possible. Yeah. Whether you wanna hold on your marriage, you want a divorce. Yeah. You wanna, you know, walk or run. Yeah. You, you can do it. So that’s where I leave you Matthew, you know, is um, hold on to your kids, hold on your dreams and run. Yeah. That’s good.

 

Matthew Brickman:
Occasionally Sydney and I will be releasing Q&A bonus episodes where we’ll answer your questions and give you a personal shoutout.

Sydney Mitchell:
If you have a comment or question regarding anything that we discuss, email us at info@ichatmediation.com that’s info@ichatmediation.com and stay tuned to hear your shout out and have your question answered here on the show.

Matthew Brickman:

For more information about my services or to schedule your mediation with me, either in person or using my iChatMediation Virtual Platform built by Cisco Communications. Visit me online at www.iMediateInc.com. Call me at 561-262-9121, Toll-Free at 877-822-1479 or email me at MBrickman@iChatMediation.com.