Kim Hudson: Author of The Bridge – Connecting The Powers of Linear And Circular Thinking

Sydney Mitchell:

Hi. My name is Sydney Mitchell.

Matthew Brickman:

Hi, I’m Matthew Brickman, Florida Supreme court mediator. Welcome to the Mediate This! Podcast where we discuss everything mediation and conflict resolution.

 

Matthew Brickman (00:14):
I am joined here by Kim Hudson, author of The Bridge: Connecting the Powers of Linear and Circular Thinking. Kim, I’m so excited to talk to you with your new book. Um, I believe it just got released like two days ago or so.

Kim Hudson (00:28):
That’s correct, yeah.

Matthew Brickman (00:29):
Yeah. Um, yeah, so I got, I got, I got a preco, I got my hands on it. And, uh, so I’m excited to talk to you about it. But first, why don’t, why don’t you introduce yourself to everybody, just, you know who you are and we will, we’ll go from there. We’ll, we’ll do some circular thinking.

Kim Hudson (00:47):
Sounds great. So, I live in the Yukon in Northern Canada, and my background is probably fundamental to the book. I’ve, I’ve sort of wandered, um, following my internal instinct. So I started out as a geologist, field geologist, working in remote parts of Canada, literally helicopters jumping out in grizzly bear country, that kind of thing, <laugh>. And then I became a land claim negotiator for, uh, treaty negotiations in the Yukon. And after that, I just decided to do a, another shift, and I went to film school to study writing for film and television. And the very first day they taught us about Joseph Campbell and the Hero’s Journey. And it was, it was like chills and lights going on. I just knew this was something I had to explore. I was like, and then the very next moment they said, an all journey from all time is a hero’s journey.

Kim Hudson (01:44):
And that was when I knew I needed to find something else. So I wrote my first book on a feminine journey to go inwards. So, and out of that I started doing consulting work with First Nations, with mineral companies, with governments, and I started to notice a pattern. So I took that and I just, I really needed to like, give it language. So that what I, that’s what I did. It took seven years, seven years. I had a fellowship at SFUA University. Yeah. Seven years. Wow. Joyful years. My kids are First Nations, so we’re always trying to bridge these things anyway. Right. And it was, it was a privilege actually to really like, contemplate things deeply. And yeah. So that’s pretty much my journey right there. Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (02:30):
Well, and, and I enjoyed in the book, um, the forward done by both of your kids. Um, that was good. Getting the kids’ perspective, uh, right, which was, you know, just right off from the bat because, you know, I mean, we’re product of our upbringing, um, Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, you know, um, I deal primarily in the world of family law. And so I, you know, dealing with, with, with people going, all right, you know, as parents, we always want to pass on to the next generation, and we want better for them than what we had. And we wanna pass on that, that, that language, the experiences, you know? And hopefully the world gets better. They make better choices, you know, of course with modern medicine and technology, they’ve got stuff that we <laugh> have never, you know, we didn’t have when we were kids. Uh, yeah. So I, I appreciated that. Now, you, you had mentioned your first book that you had done that was, uh, Virgin’s Promise, right? That was, yes. That was the one

Kim Hudson (03:35):
Virgin meaning to know your valued just for being yourself, like a Virgin Forest. Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (03:40):
Yeah. Just, and yeah.

Kim Hudson (03:41):
Youngme term, you

Matthew Brickman (03:42):
Mentioned

Kim Hudson (03:42):
That I say it all the time, <laugh>,

Matthew Brickman (03:43):
You mentioned that in here, the word virgin and how, and you said Virgin Forest, it’s like, oh, yeah. Brand new. Um, yeah,

Kim Hudson (03:51):
Yeah. Or like untouched, like, in that, in that, it’s good just being who it is. It doesn’t need to be shaped or given some economic value.

Matthew Brickman (04:00):
Yeah. So film school, uh, yes. Yeah. So what do, what, what are you doing with film school now?

Kim Hudson (04:10):
Well, basically, I, I discovered that what I love is this archetypal structure. So the Hero’s journey has 12 beats that Joseph Campbell and then Chris ler have outlined. And, and it’s so predominant in Hollywood in particular, is that the, it’s a linear story. So basically by page 35, you should be crossing a threshold into a foreign land. And when you’ve got a stack of screenplays, like a couple of feet high to go through each night, you basically go to page 35 and see if that’s happening. And if not, it’s not a good structure. Oh, wow. So I was like, okay, that’s just not good enough, <laugh>. I love a hero story, don’t get me wrong. And it’s absolutely true for a hero story that that’s knows you’re on track when you’re about at that point there. Um, but there is a second story, and that’s one that’s very internally driven.

Kim Hudson (05:00):
It’s where we have to find some sort of a, a secret world where we can play and, and explore and make mistakes and be among friends. And then as we connect to ourselves, then we’re ready to bring that into the world. And it’s a very different process. Yeah. So, um, yeah, so basically I challenged myself over that book, took five years, and I studied all over the place and watched a million movies, right? Well, no, hundreds of movies and, um, came up with a pattern. I, I guess that’s my thing. I love pattern recognition, right? And it takes a while to settle in, but I really enjoy it. Well, and

Matthew Brickman (05:42):
One of the things when I started reading this, um, I had said to my wife, I said, you know, what’s amazing is you found a way to put language to concepts that I knew and what I live and do, but didn’t know how to explain it. And that’s what you did in this book was you were able to, I’m reading this. I, I said to her, I said, this is the second best book I’ve read for self therapy.

Kim Hudson (06:15):
Oh, wow. What was the first,

Matthew Brickman (06:17):
The first one was a book. It was, it was actually a textbook that I read called Inter, what was it? Interpersonal Conflict. It was a textbook when I was getting my undergrad. And I, I actually aced the class. I got a hundred percent. Okay. It was the most, yeah. Wow. It was the most truly amazing self discovery. Like I learned who I was, I learned my triggers, I learned what made me tick. I learned like it was the most amazing self-discovery. And then as I started to read the bridge, and you see this, this picture behind me, ah, you put a bridge that is almost a floor to ceiling canvas that many years ago I saw this online and I was like, it just spoke to me. And I was in IKEA one day, and I walked by and I saw this canvas. I’m like, oh my gosh, it’s not just a picture online.

Matthew Brickman (07:14):
And I bought it. Well, it’s huge. And my wife. And so, of course, at, at the time, the only place I had to hang it was over my bed in my bedroom. And when my wife and I moved two years ago, she goes, you are not hanging that in our room. I am designing the bedroom, getting art for the wall. And I’m like, well, where do I put it? She goes, put it in your office behind you. And I’m like, she goes, she goes, you are the bridge. And I was like, right. Okay, great. Um, and so then as I, like I said, as I was reading your book, the Bridge, and then as I’m reading and I’m every day and I’m looking behind me going, that’s where I live. Like, I live on the bridge. Um, and as a mediator, what was interesting, so, so, so a little bit about myself, I actually, and so when I started reading chapter one, and we didn’t get too far into chapter one.

Matthew Brickman (08:07):
I mean, it was a few pages into chapter one, and I’m like, oh, yeah, Kim and I are gonna hit this off. Great. You, you start name dropping. And I’m like, William Urie, right? William Urie was one of my biggest influencers. Um, when I, when, uh, recently I got ahold of all of his books, you know, getting past, no, getting the, yes, all of that stuff. And then actually, um, then I did, um, I, I started investigating him and of, of course, you know, uh, William Urie and Josh Weiss were the two co-founders of, uh, uh, Harvard’s Global Negotiation Initiative. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so then, uh, I started reading all of his books, really started influencing how I, uh, was mediating and helping people negotiate. And then I did, uh, uh, the Negotiation Mastery Program at Harvard Business School, and then got accepted to the Mastery Negotiation Executive Education Course at Harvard Law School. Um, and those were amazing. Again, this book, you put language to things that I learned that had concepts, but this linear and circular really opened my eyes even more. Like you just had a way of explaining things that just, things going off going, now I know, now I can explain why. I know what I know, but I knew it, but I didn’t know why. And now I’ve got language

Kim Hudson (09:45):
To it. That’s very high phrase. Thank you so much.

Matthew Brickman (09:47):
Now I’ve got language to it. And what was interesting was then, um, then I had an opportunity and, um, actually met and was able to negotiate against Josh Weiss, um, who was William Muir’s, uh, partner that founded the program on negotiation with the Abraham Path Initiative. That was amazing. Um, amazing, amazing man. Um, and so, um, what, what I found that was interesting, and I guess my question for you and all the research, I mean, I didn’t realize seven years, that’s a lot of research

Kim Hudson (10:26):
And experience <laugh>

Matthew Brickman (10:27):
And, and yeah. And yeah, lot, a lot of research and experience. So with, so, so I’m not a negotiator. You were a negotiator with First Nation and you were

Kim Hudson (10:41):
Negotiating. I was with the federal government negotiating a treaty. So, yeah.

Matthew Brickman (10:44):
So, so you are, and, and you’re actually negotiating on behalf of Correct.

Kim Hudson (10:49):
Of the federal government. Yes. Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (10:52):
Yeah. And I don’t do a whole lot of negotiation. I am a mediator. So I sit in the middle of the two negotiators. And what I found extremely, I guess, I guess what put language to Everything was on page 41 where you ha um, where you started giving the words and definitions to the linear and circular to different words. Thank you. Um, um, or actually, yeah, to where, you know, linear thinking, for example, loyalty, but circular thinking, authenticity, and caring. As I went down these lists, you know, ’cause you talk about circular thinking is focused on relationship building and trust, and then linear is focused on goals and progress. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, what I find as a mediator, someone that sits in between the negotiation is, and, and I’ve just been thinking about this, I, it feels as though I, I do both at the same time, or else I am jumping between the two lightning speed, but I don’t know which one it is, because, you know, as a mediator in a legal process, when we’re dealing with a divorce or paternity matter, it’s very high emotion. So a lot of circular thinking, but we’re moving through a legal process. I’ve gotta move them through a process, which is very linear, but it’s all about being circular and linear at the same exact time. Is that possible, or am I jumping light speed being that I sit in the middle of this negotiation?

Kim Hudson (12:44):
I would say that you’re, you’re jumping at light speed. Okay. And I have a whole theory on why that would be in this. Okay, go

Matthew Brickman (12:51):
For it,

Kim Hudson (12:51):
<laugh>. Okay, here we go. <laugh>,

Matthew Brickman (12:53):
Go for it. I, I’m interesting.

Kim Hudson (12:56):
So linear thinking is, I, I like to start with like the definition of power. Okay. Because we have, whether we’re conscious of or not, we get some construct of what power means in our head, and then that activates a certain type of thinking, and it shapes even what we see. So, and I’m gonna put before you two different concepts of power, right? And you power see just how

Matthew Brickman (13:19):
Different powers in chapter four for everyone listening, there’s, you know, yes. We’re, we’re now jumping to chapter four, where you talk about linear and circular power, correct?

Kim Hudson (13:28):
Yes. Okay. And then I’m gonna back up a bit and, and use that as a foundation. Okay. So here we go. So linear power, and this is loosely ba well, it’s based on Weber and many other, it’s the only one you’ll find in the dictionary actually for power, which is to assert your will even against resistance. It’s about control, right? Circular power, which is much more inward focusing, is to know yourself, be yourself, and support others in doing the same. And that is relational and it, but I think we can all agree it’s also very powerful Yeah. When you can do those things. Yeah. Um, so, but you can also see that they are very different from each other. So you can’t actually think linearly and circularly at the same time. Now it’s bit tricky because, because, well, first of all, I’ll say this because the operating conditions that that lens creates, when you have that understanding of power are actually opposite of each other.

Kim Hudson (14:30):
Okay. Linear thinking is always pushing back against what you don’t want to happen. Whereas circular is always, always pulling in more of what’s curious or novel or nutritive. And so you’re, we need these two things. It’s like a homeostasis, right? We can both push back against what can hurt us and pull in what’s, what’s beneficial. Right? So that’s why I’m suggesting that you are moving at, at lightning speed from one to the other. Okay. And, and I also think that when you say that you stand on this ground between, the thing about linear and circular thinking is that it is contagious. Like when a person is in one mode, if somebody’s pushing us, we push back, right? So we know intuitively when we’re, when what the rules are for linear thinking and how that whole game works also for circular. So when you stand on that bridge between the two, you get to pick the pace. And when you need people to get into the more relational things, you slow it down. Yeah. So that people can Yeah, I bet intuitively you know this. Oh yeah. Like, you slow down that so that people can pick up that energy from you and everybody gets that chance to make the transition. Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (15:42):
I mean, like, like I said, I’ve been doing this for almost 17 years. I’ve done almost 3000 mediations. I, and people say all the time, Matthew, nobody mediates like you. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And there’s things that I know, but until you put words to it, I didn’t know what I knew. And so, and so, and so my wife and I were talking because she’s also in the legal field, and so we’re both, you know, legal minded going, okay, we’re looking at this and, and so I’m sharing these things. And here’s the other interesting thing. So, so I’m sharing it and she’s like, it sounds like you’re doing both at the same time. But the more I thought about it, I’m like, but I can’t be, because they’re, they’re, they’re, like you said, they’re in opposition. So I mean, it’s like jumping, just lightning speed. And she’s always said, you process lightning speed.

Matthew Brickman (16:31):
Like some people have to slow down analyze. She goes, you look at things and you can just, you know, pro con list, lightning speed process things. Um, but then, you know, as I am mediating, you know, some people are just wanting to move through. Like a lot of times the attorneys, they’re just like, we need to move this process. And I’m like, we’ve gotta deal with this before we can get to that. And I’ve, and so, yeah. I mean, I’m pushing against them, but I’m really, a lot of times I’m just coming alongside the parties and helping them walk down the path and Mm-hmm. <affirmative> we’re, it, it, it really is circular. We’re, we’re exploring ideas, but then we talk literally about all, all the different legal options. And this could happen. This could happen, but then let’s go back and let’s customize it for you. And just jumping back and forth. Right. But also having full information, like as a ne, you know, if if I’m negotiating, I know my side and then I’m, I’m learning from the other side as a mediator. I’ve got everybody’s side, and then I’m trying to process and navigate and move them through something literally. But then circular, there’s overlaps knowing too, that when I’m gone, the attorneys are gone, the process is gone, these two are still left to deal with each other, and how do we set ’em up for success?

Kim Hudson (17:47):
Right. And it, you know, crazy why there’s the fact that it’s, but it’s never about what it’s about. You know? It’s not about who gets the dog. Correct. You know, like there’s, there’s stuff behind that. Oh yeah. And if we can actually make it visible and give it some compassion, the other stuff, the linear stuff actually just goes click, click, click my, and that’s pretty much what you just described.

Matthew Brickman (18:09):
<laugh>. I’ll, I’ll tell you my very first, just, just like we were talking Virgin Forest, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. You never forget your first, if anything, my first mediation ever. It was exactly that. Where after seven hours of dividing up their stuff, a pages of lists of all their belongings, who gets this? Who gets that? We come down to two items. One of them was the marital bed, and the other was a kitchen hutch. And the husband was like, I don’t care which one, I’ll take either of them. And the wife was like, I want both of them. And we’re like, but pick one. There’s two items. Two of you, you, you each get one. Well, she broke down and the attorney started her, her own attorney was like, just pick one. And I, and, and I said to her, and I guess this is just instinctively, I said, I said, alright, if you went to court and a judge said, and the judge made a decision, you lost one, which one would you be more upset that you lost?

Matthew Brickman (19:07):
And she said, both of them. I said, that’s not the answer. I said, which one? And, and, and, and she, and then she just broke down. I said, what’s going on? And she said, he cheated on me. Say we start getting to the background. He cheated on me. He left me and the kids alone. And yeah, we’re separating everything, but he’s about to be shipped overseas for a tour. He was in the military and all of his stuff is going to his girlfriend up in Michigan. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And she was hurt. That’s what was driving it. And I said to her, I said, so you want him to feel the same pain that you’re feeling? Absolutely. I said, give him the bed. She goes, no, I love that bed. I said, what, what about this? She goes, we conceived our kids in that bed. It was our, it was the, it was our marital bed. I said, give it to him and let him explain to his girlfriend that he won the marital bed that you conceived your kids in, in his divorce. And all of a sudden she goes, he can have the bed. Right. <laugh>.

Kim Hudson (20:17):
So you changed the story, changed

Matthew Brickman (20:19):
The, when we un when I understood what was driving that it’s not linear. Linear would not settle this. That’s true. But that was my first mediations almost 17 years ago.

Kim Hudson (20:31):
Wow. And so, so you have a good intuition for both.

Matthew Brickman (20:35):
But it’s interesting that it 17 here, it took you seven years to, to write this. It’s me 17 years later. And I’m going, I’m now reading this going, okay, we have language to what I, I know, I know. But didn’t know. And why I knew. I mean, even, even about power, like you were saying, even about the power, just crazy. Now here’s what’s really interesting, reading this in business. Yeah. I’m jumping back and forth Lightspeed between linear and circular. Okay. As a mediator, helping people in my personal life, I am almost a hundred percent linear. I could care less about circular. It is crazy. I, I, I give the chart to my wife and I said, okay, who am I even she said, she goes, what do you mean? I said, okay, in business, you know, ’cause you hear all my stories, you know, she goes, you’re both. And I’m like, okay, personally, who am I? Oh, you’re totally linear. And I’m like, yeah, yeah. I’m like very, it’s very strange. Like we could talk about world events and I’m very circular in mediation, but outside of mediation, very linear.

Kim Hudson (21:49):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, they have done studies on this. Okay. That personality is not, you don’t have one character traits and that’s it. Yeah. You’ll have different ones for different aspects of your life. Yeah. You

Matthew Brickman (22:03):
Mentioned that in here. You said that we are a blend of both, and then you learn to hone each one.

Kim Hudson (22:08):
Yes, yes.

Matthew Brickman (22:09):
Yeah. You

Kim Hudson (22:10):
Mentioned that depending on, yeah. Yeah. So I think it’s basically the human condition. Okay. That were built with these two capacities and your culture will, will influence you. Your family dynamics Absolutely. Will influence you and your own personal nature Yeah. Will influence where the, the meter lands between completely circular and completely linear. Um, and everybody is a gradation of it too. And we’re gonna shift them. Yeah. And, and I think it’s, it’s really interesting. Like you say, you’ll, you’ll have what you sort of came with or what you arrived at as an adult, but you can learn to develop the, the side that you’re not, it’s not your strength. Yeah. If you start to recognize there’s a value in doing that. Yeah. And, and I’ve actually mostly when I talk to engineers, they are so excited by suddenly this new potential, all these walls they’ve been hitting suddenly sort of disappear because they just listened without trying to find flaw or, or move forward. And it’s, it’s been life changing <laugh>. But the other thing is, you can also recognize the value in somebody that can do something that is not your way of doing it. Yeah. When you have this model for what circular thinking looks like, and then you can delegate, you can say for these particular things, it is better to do circular. You’re really good at that. I trust you. Yeah. Go for it. That kind of thing. Well,

Matthew Brickman (23:35):
And that’s something, I mean, as, as, as I’ve gotten older, um, I guess, I mean, I’m 49, so I would say probably, probably in my forties, um, there are very few hills I’m willing to die on anymore <laugh>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, it used to be ever

Kim Hudson (23:51):
That is

Matthew Brickman (23:51):
Maturity <laugh>. Yeah. I mean, I mean, it was like, I’ll die on this hill. It’s like, all right, I could care less right now. I just want peace and quiet. Like, I don’t need to win. I don’t need to be. Right. I just want a peaceful relationship. I, I like, I’ll be wrong all day long. I just want peace. Um, mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, not where I’m gonna roll over and sacrifice, but it is just, it’s more important to me. You know, the relationship is more important. And again, reading this, going okay, even though for the most part, I am linear personally. Now after reading this, I’m starting to go, I need to start focusing on and being more circular in my personal life to balance that out so I’m not just one. ’cause like my wife will be like, Matthew, you really need to like, show some empathy.

Matthew Brickman (24:46):
I’m like, I’m empathetic. Everybody says I’m empathetic. She goes and reviews and reads, my reviews online. She goes, these people say you’re empathetic. They don’t know who you are. I’m like, well, no, I am. But after reading this and realizing, wait a second, there’s a balance. I need to take more circular and incorporate it into personal and start to find a even more balance. I said to my daughter, I said, I said, okay, so I, I got this new book you’ve gotta read and, and, and, and, and she goes, well, would I like it? And she’s, she’s a director with, with children and, um, an elementary coordinator. I said, oh, yeah. I said, you’re gonna love it and your husband’s gonna love it. And I’ve been telling everybody about it. And, and, and I said, look, basically if you live and breathe air on this planet, you need to read this. Um,

Kim Hudson (25:33):
Boy, that was, that was one of the hardest things. Everybody’s saying, who’s your audience? You know? And I was like,

Matthew Brickman (25:38):
Everybody’s your audience <laugh>. Yeah. I mean, I mean, look, if you, if if you suck air on this planet, you need to read this book because you, like, it’s just like lights going off. Um, one of the things that you talk about, um, which is separate, but together,

Kim Hudson (25:57):
Uh, yes. Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (25:58):
Separate.

Kim Hudson (25:59):
Separate, but together. That was what an elder had said to me. Yeah. And it’s so true. So, and this is where we get into the inclusion and diversity and all these concepts that we’re really hoping to,

Matthew Brickman (26:09):
We’re dealing with right now.

Kim Hudson (26:10):
Exactly. Yeah. And, and so it’s basically that you have to start by wanting the other person to be themself. And so, and then you, you walk beside them, you have to be, bring your best self and you, you encourage and inspire or you, or you watch to see their best self. And when you can truly understand each other, that’s when you can. And he would, he would hold his hands out in front of him and then fist, and then he would join, interlock his fingers and say, that’s when you can actually, and notice that those fingers are one and then the other. Right. So you, the diversity is that you allow two different things to exist in the same space. Yeah. And, and I actually, I’ve been fascinated when I got into this whole idea of like diversity and inclusion, and we do two things in diversity.

Kim Hudson (27:01):
There’s like a linear and a, and a circular part of it. So linear diversity is that you just check the stats. Like, you know, we need to have certain percentage of women or, or some, um, racial diversity, you know, those types of things. You want measurable things to show that you are diverse. The other kind is that you create an environment that will nurture a diversity of opinion. You, you build in ways for individuals to do their work, but in a way that meets their personal needs. Yeah. And if you have information, for example, you’re trying to figure out how can I make this informational information available to people in the way that best serves them and in, and the timing that best serves them. Yeah. So rather than metering it out according to, you know, information as power. Right. So, you know, you, when we have these two definitions, they actually can even support each other.

Kim Hudson (28:00):
Like in Norway, they had, or was it Iceland anyway, in one of the Scandinavian northern countries, <laugh>, they made it a requirement that 40% of the board makeup, if there was more than 10 people had to be of each gender. Okay. So, and they didn’t say women I liked that they had made sure that it, it was always some sort of balance. Sure. And as a result of that, you ended up with at least four people, whether it were women on a board, and where before that 80% were men on, on boards. So what happened was that suddenly one is like a, a token. Two is, is kind of a novelty, but three, three is a, is a, is a place of sharing. And, and you can actually catch onto their ideas that spreads. Yeah. So the, the individuality that you need in an environment had a place to take hold. Like, because they created this linear definition of diversity and made the law, they actually facilitated this second way of thinking to become part of the process of a board. So that’s one of the lovely ways that these two things can actually interlock and work together. Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (29:19):
So two things that, two things that popped out when I was reading this was first off, so I live in south Florida and most of South Florida they have HOA communities. Um, and so are you familiar with those? No. Okay. So first off, so I, I live on a golf course. Okay. So in order to get into the community, you have to go through a guard gate. Okay. 24 hour guard gate. And so, um, and so it, there’s, there, there’s a uniformity throughout the neighborhood, you know, um, where, you know, the, you know, they have what they call a homeowner’s association board that they govern. Like, okay. Like, you know, your, you know, the grass always has to be capped. You can’t leave, you know, you can’t mar leave, leave multiple vehicles just on the road. You can’t fix your cars and leave them up on blocks.

Matthew Brickman (30:16):
Like they’ve got rules for beautification and for uniformity and whatnot in these boards. And they’ve got ’em all over. Like most of South Florida is what we call HOA boards everywhere, just a way of life. Okay. So that is very linear. Like there are rules, there are regulations, um, and property lines. Property lines, linear. Like this is my property. So like, um, you know, in, in, in the book where, where you, where you give the example of, you know, the guy that, you know, draws the line a very linear, and how then, well then you can only put lots of boxes, and this is my box, and that is your box opposed to circles that overlap. And these are, you know, this is, these are our lines, but they can intersect and we can all be a community. It builds a community. What I realized is my community and, and, and our community is sort of unique, um, in that part of the board rules, no fences.

Matthew Brickman (31:18):
Oh, not allowed to put up a fence, no fences. It’s called an open community. Now, my wife and I put in an addition to the house in the back, a a a pool deck and screen and whatnot. And so the city comes out and says, okay, well here’s your property line. And they have their rules of it. It is gotta be 10 feet from the property line hold nine yards linear. This is what I’m look thinking as I’m reading your book. Okay. Linear. But then there’s no fences. And the neighbors just walk around and, you know, they, they may cut through the in between the homes to get down to the lake and fish and whatnot. There is such of all the places I have ever lived my entire life, this is a place of amazing community. The neighbors, I mean, just the community. My wife and I love it because there’s such a sense of community. And it’s got to be because it’s the only place I’ve ever lived where there’s no fence.

Kim Hudson (32:17):
I agree.

Matthew Brickman (32:17):
And it’s crazy how that’s a great example. It’s crazy how we’re separate, but we’re together. But it cre like there are rules that yes, there, this is your property. We’re not just building on each other’s property, but no fences create such a sense of unity, togetherness. We just like, you know, we go out in the backyard and our neighbors walking through our backyard to our other neighbors so their dogs can get together. And, and, and, and we, we sit on the back porch and we just say hi to people and say, just walk across our yard. And it, it, we’ve been here two years. It, it took us a little bit of while to be like, oh my gosh, they’re in our yard.

Kim Hudson (32:53):
Right.

Matthew Brickman (32:53):
But then we realized there’s such a sense of community.

Kim Hudson (32:56):
Yeah. It’s relational and

Matthew Brickman (32:58):
Very relational. When you look

Kim Hudson (32:59):
Peek in the eye, when there’s, when there isn’t an option of I’m just gonna block you. Yes. Then you figure out ways to, to get along. You shift your attitude. Yes. And basically you look inward and you, and you say, you know what, when somebody, if something bothers you, you would say, why does that bother me? And then you would grow through it. Yeah. You know, because this is the community that I live in. Yeah. And that’s circular power.

Matthew Brickman (33:22):
Yeah. And, and, and then in mediation, as we set up parenting plans, a lot of times, and it’s interesting because there’s a separate together and I use together, but separate. So it’s reverse. I don’t know if that changes the concept, but when we talk about, you know, setting up a parenting plan and the people are getting divorced and they have to co-parent, we talk about how we’re setting it up like a business. You’re gonna be business partners and you’re gonna co-parent completely separate. You are two CEOs of the same company. So here’s all the rules. But then, you know, as long as you don’t violate these rules, go have at it. Ignore your corporate docs, ignore this, do your thing, get along. But if not, well then you’ve got this, but you’re gonna co-parent completely separate. You’re rarely gonna see each other. You’re rarely gonna have the interaction, but you’re gonna be co-parenting. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So as I was reading it, it was separate, but together, and I’m going together, but separate. That seems to be opposite. And I actually was thinking, well, you know what, maybe I’m gonna change just which comes first. ’cause I think there is a difference between separate but together and together, but separate.

Kim Hudson (34:36):
Yes.

Matthew Brickman (34:37):
I think there’s a difference. And your way, really, your way, again, puts language to what I was trying to explain, but I think I explained it wrong. And yours. Yeah.

Kim Hudson (34:49):
Yeah. So separate put together allows each person to be their best self first. Yes. So that they’re always taking responsibility for their selves. Yeah. Basically. Yeah. And, and feeling good about that. You’re growing, you’re knowing that I have this agency, and then you’re coming together and that’s the way that you can bring your best self Yeah. To an arrangement.

Matthew Brickman (35:10):
And a lot of times, a lot of times, you know, after the fail of a marriage and relationship and stuff, you know, family attorneys and criminal attorneys often joke. ’cause and, and, and sometimes a a actually a lot of the attorneys I work with do the do family and criminal. And they say with, you know, the difference between criminal law and family law is criminal law. You meet really bad people on their best behavior and family law. You meet really good people on their worst behavior, <laugh>. Oh, interesting. Um, and so, and so, unfortunately, I have the pleasure of, of meeting really amazing people on their worst behavior. But usually it’s out of fear. It’s out of that power. Um, you know, it’s, resources are scarce, emotions are high, and they’re scared and they don’t know what to do. So a lot of times they have lost themselves either in the relationship or in the other person, or lost themselves in parenting, and they don’t have the i their identity.

Matthew Brickman (36:11):
And so like, um, it was around page 90. It was, it was almost, almost page five. Uh, I mean, so not page five, chapter five. Um, you were, um, you were talking about know yourself, be yourself, everything starts with self. Um, right. And a lot of times, you know, in mediation, um, I, I, I use the analogy, I tell ’em, I say, look, you know, you, you have got to know who you are because if you don’t know who you are, then how can you possibly share that with somebody else? You don’t know what you’re sharing. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And that can be dangerous because if you get two people that don’t know who they are, don’t know how they’re wired, don’t know what they like, don’t know what they dislike, have no boundaries, well then it’s like, Hey, who are you? I don’t know. Who are you?

Matthew Brickman (36:58):
I don’t know. Let’s go find out together. They go and find out they’re going, I don’t think I like you. I don’t think I like you either. You know? And then that leads to then a breakdown. Like you, and especially as they’re ending, I’m like, okay, we’re gonna start over. Take care of yourself. I said, it’s a lot like, you know, you get on an airplane, what do they tell you? Put your own oxygen mask on first, otherwise you’re no good to anybody around you. You know? Yeah. Now some people think that that’s selfish. I’m like, no, no, no. That’s not selfish. You’ve got to take care of yourself so you can be the best version of you to everyone around you.

Kim Hudson (37:35):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. So, oh, you said so many interesting things there. One was that there’s a difference between having a barrier and having a container. And the container is basically a place for self care. For one thing. It’s the place where you rejuvenate, where you, you become capable of being your best self. And I do think that that’s something that you were saying, that people have lost themselves. Yeah. That they need to like, regain that partly by recognizing they need a space, a loved based connection. Reconnection Yeah. Space. And, and you can create that for yourself. Yeah. You, you know, literally eat your favorite food, play your favorite music, like just, and don’t, and, and do this sort of within a container. It’s not your entire life. It’s not, you’re gonna suddenly only do that. Yeah. You give yourself some space and you start to reconnect and then you’ve got more to give. And that’s, and that is a really important part.

Matthew Brickman (38:29):
And, and that part is, you know, like, like when we set up a parenting plan a lot of times, and a lot of times it is a mom that says, oh my gosh, you know, I’m not gonna have my kids every day. And I’m like, that that’s correct. That’s the time where you can take care of you. Go get a facial, listen to music, stay up late, don’t do the dishes. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> like Yeah. Like the time away. That’s the time for you to rediscover who you are. That’s what you’re talking about the container, right?

Kim Hudson (38:59):
Yes. Yeah. And, and it’s also about the separate part. Separate doesn’t mean, um, isolated. Yeah. It means that you can find your container and deal with your inner world and deal with your, you know, what you need. Yeah. And then you’re so much better off when you can come together.

Matthew Brickman (39:16):
So barrier. ’cause you said the difference between container and barrier. So

Kim Hudson (39:21):
Yeah. So a barrier is like a fence. Yeah. It’s, it’s like, I don’t wanna deal with you, this is mine, that’s yours, and there’s no, I wanna be objective about this. Let’s just cut each other off. And sometimes you need to do that. Yeah. You know, like you, you do create barriers for safety. Sure. You know, for all these things. Um, but a container is where you know that with within this space, you’re safe, you are appreciated. You can lose track of time and find flow. Okay. You know, just find that sense of reconnection to self. Yeah. And, and that’s where you get your power. So it’s really interesting, like you mentioned there was, you could have emotional stuff or, and you could also have lack of resources. And that’s the fear part. Yeah. And the way we respond to these two things is very different.

Kim Hudson (40:06):
Yeah. Like fear is basically an early warning system. Yeah. We are always like externally focused, and we’re waiting for that signal that tells us, okay, we need to take, make a plan, get some information, and have some action to shape you. Choose how you want the outcome to look, and then you shape things to make that happen. Yeah. It’s all dealing with your external world. Whereas things like, we realize that we feel disconnected from ourselves, we’ve lost ourselves. That’s our internal world. And with there our emotions are our gold, you know, like we should sit with a cup of tea and say, how do I feel? Yeah. And let that, you know, but you can also say, I have a whole range of feelings and I’m gonna pick which one I want to grow. Because whatever you give your attention to, that’s will grow and be contagious. Yeah. So that’s, whereas in the fear-based world, you, you get that information, something’s dangerous is coming, and you shut off your emotions. They’ll make you overreact or underreact out of ous. Like you just wanna hit that middle zone. So you cut off your emotions and you allow logic to take over. Yeah. And that’s how you deal with fear. That’s the optimal way to deal with it. But this, and that’s why it’s so important to know the difference.

Matthew Brickman (41:20):
Yeah. And this going back, let’s just circle all the way back. This is exactly how to, how to do it. When to do it is going to the bridge.

Kim Hudson (41:30):
That’s exactly right. I mean,

Matthew Brickman (41:31):
How

Kim Hudson (41:32):
You need to pause,

Matthew Brickman (41:32):
How, how to push pause. It’s sort of like when, when, when William Urie was talking about going to the balcony, right. In a negotiation, when he goes to the balcony, what what we’re talking about is knowing when to stop being linear, move to circular or vice versa. Go to the bridge, do your analysis. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, and then figure out which one is appropriate at this particular time for Right. Either engaging or I guess right.

Kim Hudson (42:00):
Disengaging. So I, I find it easiest. Like I, when I’m trying to go to the bridge, I, first thing I say, am I pushing back? Like, is, are they doing something? And I’m pushing back and I say, okay, I’m in linear thinking. Linear thinking is a pushing match. And if I think I could win and that it’s, it’s not, I don’t need a relationship in the end and you know, dah, dah, dah, dah, then I’m in the right space. Yeah. But if that’s not true, then I need to start figuring out how to get to circular. And, and the way is to do the opposite. You basically think, okay, what can I pull in? What can I say yes to? Yeah. That they’re actually, even if it’s, if it’s not, if, if the question is I want this and and you want that change the subject, yes.

Kim Hudson (42:38):
I want harmony between us. Yes. There were good things in our relationship and you know, I want those good memories. Like, so you can say yes in, in a multiple of ways. Usually it’s about what was meaningful Yeah. Um, and what’s important. Yeah. Those types of things. And you’ve then you’ve completely shifted the dynamics and you stay there for a while. Yeah. Figure out what’s, you know, where that’ll take you. Yeah. And it’ll be uncomfortable, you know, that you should know that that’s part of the process and, and be kind to yourself and just keep going. Yeah. Just sort of no, no judgment. Yeah.

 

Matthew Brickman:
Occasionally Sydney and I will be releasing Q&A bonus episodes where we’ll answer your questions and give you a personal shoutout.

Sydney Mitchell:
If you have a comment or question regarding anything that we discuss, email us at info@ichatmediation.com that’s info@ichatmediation.com and stay tuned to hear your shout out and have your question answered here on the show.

Matthew Brickman:

For more information about my services or to schedule your mediation with me, either in person or using my iChatMediation Virtual Platform built by Cisco Communications. Visit me online at www.iMediateInc.com. Call me at 561-262-9121, Toll-Free at 877-822-1479 or email me at MBrickman@iChatMediation.com.