Matthew Brickman Interviews Keld Jensen – Author of Negotiation Essentials

Sydney Mitchell:

Hi. My name is Sydney Mitchell.

Matthew Brickman:

Hi, I’m Matthew Brickman, Florida Supreme court mediator. Welcome to the Mediate This! Podcast where we discuss everything mediation and conflict resolution.

 

Matthew Brickman (00:11):
Everything is negotiable, but a lot of it is if you have the fear of even asking the clients of like, I don’t understand your pricing. I don’t understand how you get paid. I don’t understand how this works. Right. And there’s a lot of things out there people sign up for and get all day long, and they have no idea. They don’t understand. Oh God.

Keld Jensen (00:33):
Yeah. Right. Okay. Yes. Yeah, you’re absolutely right. And, and, and, and I love what you just did there, Matthew, because that’s the professional negotiators, um, first step that is obviously understanding what it is the counterpart wants and are saying. And a lot of unprofessional negotiators are just running straight into a negotiation like that and start arguing, you know, I don’t want to pay that. Your competitors can do it cheap, and you’re stupid, and I don’t like you, and blah, blah, blah. You know, and, and, and then, you know, that is just going to raise the tension because then the counterpart obviously is getting offended and start saying, well, we don’t need you as a customer, blah, blah, blah. There you go. I don’t

Matthew Brickman (01:06):
Want them to leave the negotiation.

Keld Jensen (01:08):
Exactly. I

Matthew Brickman (01:09):
Need their product. They need me as a customer, and this is a relationship.

Keld Jensen (01:13):
Yeah, yeah. No, exactly. I, I, I love what you did and that’s, that’s the right way forward. One, one thing I’ve learned, and I was actually, um, I was doing a webinar with Professor Spiro from Harvard just last week. Uh, he’s one of my, one of my heroes. Uh, he’s, uh, authored a couple of books as well. I would recommend everybody to read. Um, and, um, uh, doc Dr. Shapiros have, he, he got an approach to negotiation. Um, he’s actually coming from psychology where he’s saying that we all suffering more than ever from the, the tribal effect. We, we are in a tribe. We don’t listen. We are actually getting worse at listening. Yeah. And what he’s saying resonates a lot in my world because I’m seeing that, I’m actually seeing since I began in this world in the nineties, we are not improved the way we listen to each other.

Keld Jensen (02:00):
We actually gotten worse at it. And, and we see that in, in, in, in politics in the US as well. You know, we have two parties that can’t talk to each other, won’t listen to, to each other either. I mean, that’s not a relationship. Yeah. And, and it, it’s scary to me as well, when we’re sitting in, in a negotiation, and if you disagree with me, I’m just blocking you out. You know, I don’t wanna listen to you. You’re wrong. And I’m right. Um, because obviously I often find that disagreement is what creates movement forward. You know, disagreement is actually a healthy thing. It’s not an unhealthy thing. And one of the things that I’ve experienced, Matthew, is that instead of asking questions like you did, we just either go in complete denial or we start to argue. And, um, my approach in a very simple advice that I spend time and in the book as well, is actually saying that, you know, when you hear your counterpart raise a topic, replace the sound of the word with the sound of a cash register.

Keld Jensen (02:58):
And what I mean by that is there’s only one reason a negotiator is raising a topic. He or she has an interest in that topic. And your challenge as a negotiator is figuring out what is that interest? You know, why is it that he or she’s asking for that? What is it they want to achieve? Why is there ever focus on that? And if you leave that negotiation not knowing what that interest is, you failed. Yeah. But if you actually just start asking questions, why is it important to you? What is the benefit of you getting that? How can I help you achieve that? Then you actually move towards something that could create mutual benefit. And I’m often saying that we are suffering from what I call the Copernicus effect. And if we should take a quick, uh, history lesson here, for those who don’t rem uh, remember Copernicus Copernicus many a hundred years ago, was the first one in Europe that came out and said, I don’t think earth is cent of the universe.

Keld Jensen (03:47):
He said, I think Earth is circling around the sun. And back then the Catholic church was the ultimate power in Europe, but they had dictated that Earth was the cent of the universe. So they got frustrated with Mr. Copernicus and put him in house arrest. And then this dad torture him, him, and he was very stubborn. He wouldn’t give up because he’d think he did the math. Right. And finally they executed him because he was in disagreement with the Catholic church. I call that the Copernicus effect because we have tendency as human beings of living in this bubble. And I have monopoly on knowing how the world is. Right, Matthew. So if you perceive the world differently than I do, and I’m sitting here in my bubble, I’m just sitting here thinking, Matthew don’t really understand how anything is working. Yeah. Because his perception is, is wrong, because you don’t see the world the same way I do.

Keld Jensen (04:33):
But back to what I’m saying, and then I’ll, I’ll be quiet again. Um, it’s really important that we understand that if you have an interest in something, and lemme just give you a commercial interest, if your value of something is higher than my expense, I should be happy taking out that expense. If I can help you create a higher value, if you then will compensate me for that expense I’ve taken on to help you create a profit. And that’s another simple, simple thing that people every single day around us are missing out on because they’re just, if they see they have an expense, if they see they have an issue, if they see they have to put resource into something, they just shoot it down and say, I won’t do it, Matthew. I have no interest in that. And I’m not even trying to figure out why is it that you have that interest in that area. So anyway, I just got inspired, I’m sorry about the longer trainer, but you did everything well perfectly by asking all these questions, because I can only, uh, repeat as a message to all your listeners right here. We need to be able to be better at listening and asking questions. That’s one of the, the, the, the, the, the really incredible important tools in, in improving the way we live in improving life, and certainly improving the way we negotiate. Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (05:44):
Well, and, and, and just to follow up on what you were saying, you know, especially, especially with just the inability to communicate, we’ve somehow very fast, we’ve gotten to a place of, um, demonizing or competition of right and wrong. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, where we don’t listen to the other side. We’re not open to their, uh, viewpoint, their vantage point, their perspective. I’m Right. Therefore, if they don’t agree with me, well then they must be wrong. Yeah. And the other thing too is, you know, it’s like, okay, well, if everybody thought the same, looked the same, did the same, I actually heard a speaker once say, say, you know what, if there were two of me, one of me is no longer necessary, <laugh>. And it’s like, and, and I’ve thought of that going, going, look, we’re in a world right now where it’s all about uniformity, conformity, do everything, say everything. And it’s like, no, it’s, it’s, it’s our individuality and our uniqueness that can help all of us grow and learn and challenge it. And so, I’m gonna show you a picture, lemme show you a picture. I, I, I keep this on my computer all the time.

Keld Jensen (06:52):
Right. Because

Matthew Brickman (06:54):
When in a negotiation, when, I mean, especially like, you know, when I’m dealing with a divorce where they’re like, and this is how it went down. They’re like, that’s not how it went down. This is how it went down. And I’m like, and then they’re like, you are wrong. No, you are wrong. And of course, there’s emotion, and then we can’t negotiate, right? Right, right. Because now they’re not listening. Right. So what I do is I say, okay, guys, hold on a second. I’m gonna show you a picture of what you guys are doing. Right. Right. And so, and so this is, this is the picture that I show them,

Keld Jensen (07:21):
Right?

Matthew Brickman (07:24):
I show them this apple.

Keld Jensen (07:25):
Right.

Matthew Brickman (07:26):
And it’s an apple looking in the mirror now from head on, it looks whole, nothing’s wrong with anything, but from the backside, it’s got an entire chunk taken out of it.

Keld Jensen (07:35):
Right. Right. Right. I’m

Matthew Brickman (07:36):
Like, look, you know what, it’s, you guys are look at the same exact thing. Right? Right. You just have to look at it from a different perspective. And the problem is, somebody could be like, I am whole, I am whole. I am whole. You’re like, well, no, you’re not. And instead of just arguing, yes, I am just like you’re asked the question. Okay. Right. Why is it that you say that I’m not whole? Well ’cause the back of you as a junk taken out. That’s why. Right. Really? Well, ’cause I don’t see that. Well, what do you

Keld Jensen (08:08):
See? Right.

Matthew Brickman (08:09):
And when we start to have the end, the conversation start to listen,

Keld Jensen (08:13):
Well,

Matthew Brickman (08:13):
We can continue the negotiation. And so I often bring this picture up to show people going, this is what you’re doing

Keld Jensen (08:21):
Carefully, because this is

Matthew Brickman (08:24):
Stopping our ability to interact and negotiate.

Keld Jensen (08:28):
Absolutely. IIII love that, that picture because it, it’s, it’s so true. I mean, we, we are from missing out. We don’t see the whole picture, do we? No. Um, and, and we assume things, I’m often telling my clients and students, you know, we are not allowed to guess. We’re not allowed to assume. And the reason I’m saying that is, I, I have met so many negotiators who’ve been negotiating for so many years. So they think that they know exactly what the counterpart wants all the time. Yeah. Um, I was just talking to a great guy the other day, and he said, when you’ve done one deal, you’ve done one deal. And, and I love that what, what he said, because it’s so true. I mean, every negotiation, every individual, every organization is, is a new experience, um, that have different needs, different requirements. And, and it’s the same thing with human beings. You know, we are coming with, with the, with different luggage. All of us. We have different interests, different purposes. And, and, and that’s great. That’s wonderful. But that’s really the key to great, uh, uh, um, the great communication, isn’t it? Figuring out what is it really that’s important to you, and how can I help you achieve that? That’s, that’s what I truly, uh, believe in.

Matthew Brickman (09:31):
Yeah. One of, uh, I, I remember when I was, I think it was the, um, the Harvard Business School, not the law school negotiation, uh, right. Course I did. One of the professors, it was, it was, it was really incredible. And I’ve, I’ve used this ever since, since, since 2019. A great tool. So one of the things that they were talking about in negotiations, they were saying, okay, what’s interesting is when you’re negotiating and when the emotions start to get high mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But what he often does is he pulls out a piece of paper. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> gives everybody a pencil. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, because he says one of the things from a psychology standpoint is it’s impossible to do, it’s impossible to do logic and reason at the same, or logic and emotion at the same exact time.

Keld Jensen (10:15):
Right. Right. Right. So,

Matthew Brickman (10:16):
So he gives him a piece of paper. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> draws a line down the middle. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then, and, and, and on this piece of paper, it says, reasons why fighting is a better option than negotiating a settlement. Then on the other side, reasons why negotiating a settlement is a better option than fighting

Keld Jensen (10:35):
Right then.

Matthew Brickman (10:36):
And, and, and, and, and he, he suggested just, you know, give, you know, you don’t have to do like the top 10, just gimme two reasons, just

Keld Jensen (10:43):
Maybe

Matthew Brickman (10:44):
The two. Then below that, what will I gain by fighting? Right. And what will I gain by negotiating?

Keld Jensen (10:54):
Yeah. I love it. Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (10:55):
And so I have, and so I, when I, when I got back from the, from from the course, I was like, oh my gosh, I printed these out. There were so many times, Kel in the middle of negotiation, the mom, the dad, or the husband let there fight. And I’m like, okay, that’s it. You guys are done. And they’re like, what? I’m like, you’re done here. Right. Here’s an assignment. Do not say a word. I, I I open up my briefcase, get I get the paper, I give him a pencil. I said, okay, do not, do not let the other person see what you’re writing. This is a secret. Right. And so, and so, I’m like, okay, take a couple minutes. All of a sudden you can feel the atmosphere. Like it’s this, like, someone just sucks all the tension outta the room. Now we can have a conversation.

Keld Jensen (11:35):
Then,

Matthew Brickman (11:35):
Then when they’re done, I’m like, okay, you’re done. They’re like, yeah. Must say buddy.

Keld Jensen (11:40):
Right.

Matthew Brickman (11:40):
Exchange papers. Yeah. Now they thought it was a secret,

Keld Jensen (11:44):
No

Matthew Brickman (11:45):
Exchange papers. And then I have them read out loud what the other person wrote.

Keld Jensen (11:50):
Right.

Matthew Brickman (11:51):
And what I find in that exercise is what you’re saying is a lot of times when you get emotion out of the way and you can hear Mm-Hmm. A lot of times their goals are the same. How they achieve ’em are different. ’cause we’re human beings. Right? Right. But their goal is the same, their fears

Keld Jensen (12:08):
Right.

Matthew Brickman (12:08):
Are the same. They don’t to be taken advantage of. They don’t want to be manipulated. They don’t wanna lose this deal. They don’t wanna look bad in front of a boss or a coworker. They wanna, they want to perform, you know, they’re afraid of not making groceries because they may lose their job. Like, these are the things. And when they can put that to paper, and then each of them understand their goals, their fears. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, we’re able to move forward with a negotiation.

Keld Jensen (12:34):
What, what, what, what a great,

Matthew Brickman (12:35):
It’s a great tool they gave us. I’m going, this is amazing what it does.

Keld Jensen (12:40):
Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s a great exercise. Uh, it, it’s, it’s a great story and great experience. Uh, I love it. What one thing I’m doing is that, uh, I’m working with what I call a code of conduct. It’s in the book as well. Okay. Um, and when I introduce that for the first time to clients, they often look at me like I, I’m crazy. But what it basically does, it’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s a one page that lists a set of rules that you want to live by. And what we often doing is, for instance, it, it, it says on that piece of paper, we will not lie. We will not bluff. That’s just one of, of several of the items. And we present that to the counterpart. And, uh, we ask if, if, if they would go along with those rules, and then each party sign it.

Keld Jensen (13:21):
Now, it doesn’t really have any legal importance. But that’s not the purpose. The purpose is that you are now emotionally connected to something you have now agreed to obey certain rules. And, and what I’m often saying, I’m talking about in the book as well, is that we have to negotiate on how to negotiate before we start negotiating. And I’m saying that because we all perceive negotiation differently. You may see negotiation as playing chess. I may see negotiation like playing tennis. So if you and I have to negotiate, Matthew, I’m walking into the room where you’re sitting and you’re sitting moving the pieces around on the chess board desperately. Right. And I’m walking in there swinging my, my racket in the air because I’m ready to play tennis. And how on earth are we going to do anything together when we are playing two different games?

Keld Jensen (14:04):
So we have to spend time on figuring out how do we play the same game? Are we playing, are we going to play chess or, uh, tennis or pickleball or what, what are we going to play? But we have to play on, on the same court. Um, so I often invest time, just like you said, I just got inspired by your story. I often invest time with the clients in real life negotiation, sitting down talking to the counterpart. How are we going to negotiate? What are we going to do this afternoon? And you know, in the beginning, people, as I said, look at, look, look at me like I’m crazy. What, what are you talking about? We’re just going to negotiate. No, no, no, no, no. We are not just going to negotiate. We have to figure out how we’re going to do it. And part of that is then the code of, of, of conduct where we agree, for instance.

Keld Jensen (14:44):
And, and one thing I, I just wanna add that as well, Matthew. One thing I’m talking about Orhan is we have to verbalize trust. One thing I have a whole chapter to, uh, uh, allocated to, to trust in, in the book, because no surprise really, but trust is a tangible asset. It’s something that creates a value. If we have a high level of trust, our transaction costs will go down and profit will go up. Right. So we can actually put a value and trust, and we have done a survey where we can actually even talk about how much. So trust is essential to be successful, truly successful. Um, but trust, I think we can all agree with that. It’s, it is not just something that happens. It’s not like I walk in and meet you for the first time and say, Matthew, I would like to have a high level of trust.

Keld Jensen (15:23):
And you go, great. I would love the same. And then we shake hands, and then we have trust. A hundred percent. It doesn’t work that way. You know, we have to prove it. We have to, we have to do something, but actually start talking about it. And verbalizing trust is taking the first step. So what we often do as well, putting the agenda on the flip chart on PowerPoint, and it says, who’s who, who got the mandate, happy to be here. And then we have an item called trust. And I can always say, I’m always excited when we’re doing, I’ve been doing it for years. I’m always sitting there watching the counterpart when they read the agenda, and then they see the word trust, and I can always see they stop. And they’re thinking, what on earth is that? What has that got to do with business?

Keld Jensen (16:00):
You know? And then I normally do a little speech where I’m talking about, you know, the financial aspects of trust and, and stuff like that. But anyway, I I, I’m just mentioning that because trust quite often seems to be something that surprises people. It’s like almost the elephant in the room we can’t talk about. But why not? I mean, why not just address it and say, yeah, when please tell me, Matthew, if you lose trust in me, please be verbal about it, because I’m not doing purposely, perhaps I’m saying something by accident that could decrease trust, but I can promise you I didn’t do it on purpose. So please tell me if I’m doing something like that, you know, that could be an opening to a negotiation.

Matthew Brickman (16:35):
Sure. So as, as a, as a mediator, um, we are required, I am required, uh, by the, uh, state Supreme Court. I have to do a mediation opening and set the ground rules. I have to set ’em, and so and so, and so when I start, I have to talk about the ground rules, what my role is, what their role is, what the attorney’s role is, how this negotiation works, what the goals are, how, you know, confidentiality. I’ve gotta set the rules. So very similar to what you’re saying, but I’m required Yeah. To set ground rules. Whereas, you know, I guess, you know, there are probably negotiators out there. They, like you said, they just rush into a negotiation, shake your hand, sit down. All right. KD what are, what are we doing today? Sure. And it’s like, there’s no like, hi, my name is Keld.

Matthew Brickman (17:28):
Like Mm-Hmm. You wanna talk to me? Like, you know, there’s no negotiation. You know, there’s no relationship, but there’s also no rules. And I like how you did that, especially with trust. Mm-Hmm. I, you know, us usually, you know, it’s especially as a family mediator, you know, sitting with two people that they’re getting divorced because trust has been broken. Sure. You know, and I tell ’em that, just like you said, I tell ’em, I said, look, Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>, you have more trust in me. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> than you do in each other, because I haven’t violated it yet.

Keld Jensen (17:55):
Right. Right.

Matthew Brickman (17:56):
I said, if we can get you guys to zero, ’cause you’re Sub-Zero. Right. You violated, if we can get you to zero, we’re on a healthy plane. Right. But it’s not just gonna happen. It’s gonna happen through, uh, through actions. It’s gonna happen over time. It’s not gonna happen at the end of this negotiation. You’re not gonna automatically trust someone. Right. And, and so the analogy that I give people, I say, look, it’s not like I met Kel. I not met you today and say, here’s the keys to my house. Here’s the keys to my car. And you know what, if anything comes up missing, I’m gonna ask for my keys back. No. You know what? First it’s like, Hey, Cal, do you wanna come over and have dinner? Sure. And then I might be like, eventually, Hey, um, can you house sit for me? And eventually

Keld Jensen (18:36):
Right,

Matthew Brickman (18:37):
You earn that. I said, nobody meets someone for the first time. Hands them every key to their home, their possession, their, and then says, well, if anything comes up missing, I’m gonna need my keys back. <laugh>. You earn trust.

Keld Jensen (18:50):
Absolutely. Trust. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, and, and, and some people, it’s funny you mention that because when I start talking about being transparent and honesty and, and trust and all that, some people look at me and, and, and, and either tell me or absolutely think that, you know, that guy is naive. But, but I agree with you. It’s not about being naive. It’s not about handing the keys to the house and the car in the first minute you meet somebody. But it’s about aiming for that, for, for, for that in gold, where I can hand you the keys, because whether it’s privately or business, that is the purpose of, of any relationship that I feel Okay. Handing you the keys, Matthew. Yeah. And, and the second I’m there, I would call that a successful outcome of any negotiation, regardless what you are negotiating. Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (19:33):
Yeah. Well, and, and, and trust, many years ago, before I was a mediator, um, I’ll don’t tell you, I used to teach hair color for an international hair color. I, I worked for Schwartzkoff International. Right? Right. And so I was, I was an educator, and they used to, they taught us the four, the four scariest words ever put together, <laugh>, that if you hear these words run

Keld Jensen (20:00):
Right,

Matthew Brickman (20:01):
You know what they are.

Keld Jensen (20:02):
No, no, I’m excited.

Matthew Brickman (20:04):
Oh, just trust me.

Keld Jensen (20:07):
Right, right. They

Matthew Brickman (20:08):
Said, if you hear that, they said, no, no, no. Trust is earned. If you hear No, no, no, no. Oh, just trust me. No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, no, no, no, no. And so, yeah, they had taught us, oh, just trust me. They’re like, don’t ever say that because you need to perform, you need to show, you need to demonstrate. And like you said, if going in, it’d be great if people went into a negotiation going, my end goal is that I like, like, like we were talking, my end goal is that I’m gonna hand you the keys to my house. Right. Well, my end goal is that I’m gonna hand the keys to the house. That’s that, just like you said, that’s going, we’re on the same level of

Keld Jensen (20:48):
Trust. Right. Then

Matthew Brickman (20:50):
Okay, then all the back and forth negotiations is business not personal, because our end goal is the same. We’re united with our end goal.

Keld Jensen (20:58):
Right. Right. Well, I, I absolutely, Matthew, what I’m trying to do, uh, with, with my clients, I’m sure you’re doing the same, is I’m trying to make them understand that the problem is not the counterpart. The problem is not us either. The problem should be a third party sitting over here, you know, so we should actually address that problem as not yours or mine, but something we have to solve together. Because that there’s a mental thing in that, that the second we realize that it’s not the counterpart that’s the issue and it’s not us. That’s the issue. The issue is over here, then it kind of removes some of the tension. Yeah. Um, because we can all agree that A, we gotta fix that because, you know, the problem is annoying for all of us. So why don’t we sit, sit down and use our, our brain power to solve that, that that riddle that it really is.

Keld Jensen (21:44):
Yeah. I often see negotiation and disagreement as a riddle. We have to find the way through the riddle, and why not just work together? Because it gets, it, it gets so much more fun and, and everybody’s so satisfied where they have sold that riddle together. And, you know, that creates often a way better relationship afterwards. I think we can all agree, Matthew, that a real good relationship is often built upon something that went wrong. And then see how we dealt with that thing that went wrong. Right? Yeah. So if we’ve been working together, and I messed up somehow, and you called me and said, Kel, you really messed up because you promised to do this, and that didn’t happen. The way I fix it is really what is creating trust. If I fix it 110%, then you’ll actually trust me more and quicker. Um, instead of if we didn’t have that issue whatsoever, because then things are just going along. But if I prove that I can fix things that I did wrong and I do it efficiently and I do it quickly, um, that can actually, uh, build up trust and, and quickly repair something that, that went wrong. Now, I’m not saying we should do something on purpose to try <laugh> and, and create trust and build up trust. That’s not what I’m saying. I’m

Matthew Brickman (22:50):
Just saying that’s manipulative and we don’t do that <laugh>

Keld Jensen (22:53):
No, exactly. I obviously no one know, again that that is really what, what creates trust very quickly, you know? Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (23:00):
Well, and, and I’ll, I’ll be a little transparent with you and, and the listeners. I don’t know, I don’t think I’ve ever told this story, but you have now reminded me of something. So I’ll tell, so I’ll tell a story. So, um, going along with, with with what you’re talking about, with trust, um, it was early on in my career and I got a call from a law firm that goes that, that said, Matthew, where are you? We have mediation right now. Well, I forgot to schedule it. I forgot to put it on my calendar and I’m not there. So human instinct immediately, what do I do? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I lied.

Keld Jensen (23:43):
That’s,

Matthew Brickman (23:45):
That’s what I did. I lied. Well, guess what?

Matthew Brickman (23:49):
Never did I get a call and it’s now 17 years. Have I ever got a call from that law firm? Right. I have never forgotten that. Right. But what I learned that day was this. Right. You know, what if you mess up Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> mess up. Yeah. Um, I remember at my, it was, it was my graduation for my undergrad. We had for the keynote speaker, we had the, um, the, uh, chief editor for US News and World Report. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And he, he did a commencement speech. I’ll never forget, he said, he said in all the news that he has covered for decades. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, he said, one piece of, one piece of information I can give you guys as, as graduated students is the coverup is always worse than the crime <laugh>. If you make a mistake, you human

Keld Jensen (24:41):
Yeah. Own it. Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (24:43):
Simply own it. Yes. And you know what? It’ll be forgiven and we’ll move past Mm-Hmm. But you’ll also be known as a person of integrity. Oh, yeah. So somebody will want to do business with. Yeah. And I think that goes to what you’re saying about trust. Yeah. And so, going back to that law firm, when I lied to them at that moment, yeah. I said, you know what, I will never do that again. And I look, I’m, I’m human. I’ve made some mistakes. Right. But I started owning ’em and I said, you know what? This is my mistake. I’m sorry I’m bad. And you know what? I always got in return always. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Oh yeah. We all make mistakes. It’s okay, we get it fixed. You know what? Yes. But you know what, don’t lie. Right. Right. Don’t lie because then now you’re not trustworthy and I don’t wanna do business with you. And, and, and that then it leads to manipulation and, and we don’t wanna deal with that. And so I was like, look, if I mess up, I’ll be the first one. I Yep. I messed up. It’s my, and you know what? That really does help, right? That, that trust.

Keld Jensen (25:43):
Absolutely. Uh, I completely agree. Thank, thank you for sharing that story. We, we’ve all done it. You know, we’ve all been in cases where we lied and we, afterwards were thinking that was not great. I don’t think any people, uh, can ever say they never lied. I often, you know, I do a lot of keynotes, I often tease the audience by saying, could you please raise your hand? Those of you who never lied, you know, and, and obviously nobody ever raised their hands, you know, because everybody’s been doing it. Everybody’s doing it, and everybody has been doing it. That does mean it’s, it’s right. And I certainly embrace everything you’re saying, and I am really trying, um, not to lie, ever even bluff. It’s the funny part is that I often meet negotiators. I never lie. Uh, I bluff though. And then I get curious because what is the big difference between bluffing and lying?

Keld Jensen (26:25):
And, and so, you know, I asked them, well, what is the difference? And they say, well, you know, if, if, if it’s a procurement officer, he or she might say, well, I was sitting with this supplier the other day and I said, well, you have a competitor that is cheaper than you and there is no competitor. So I’m bluffing. And I said, that’s not bluffing, that’s lying, because there has no alternative. So you’re just telling them that something that is not true. And, and quite often, again, I don’t want to sound naive, but you know, the world of lying is kind of black and white. It it, same thing as walking up to a pregnant woman asking, how are you pregnant? And, and then she says, just a little bit, you know, either you’re pregnant or you’re not. <laugh>

Matthew Brickman (26:59):
Just

Keld Jensen (26:59):
A, you know, either you are honest or, or, or, or you’re not. You, you can’t be a little bit honest, you know, that’s just impossible. Yeah. I had a mentor for many, many years, and, and you probably obviously know the phrase he always told me, you know, if, if, if you just tell the truth, you don’t have to think about what you just said. That’s true. And, and I think that is, that has just stayed with me forever. Um, that doesn’t mean that, you know, I’m often asked my clients as well, not saying something that, you know, is that lying? No, that’s not lying. That could actually be good negotiation, because sometimes you should just shut up and be quiet. You know, that’s actually a great negotiation tool as well. Listen, so, so that’s not lying. But if something is blue and you, and you say it’s yellow, that’s lying.

Keld Jensen (27:38):
But by not saying anything or, or not saying that you don’t know what color it is, that’s not lying. If you’re just quiet, if you just actually say, you know, I can’t say it. I won’t talk about it. I’m not allowed to talk about it. That’s not lying. It may not build up trust, but it’s not lying either. So, uh, thank you for, for telling that, that, that, that story, I think we all been there, we’ve all done it, you know, coming up with a stupid excuse for, for something that we messed up, and I completely agree with you. Um, I think it’s so much better just calling it out, saying, I’m human, I messed up. You know, you, you should try not to repeat that again with the same one.

Matthew Brickman (28:08):
<laugh>. Don’t, don’t keep apologizing for messing up a line over and over again because you’re, you’re, you’re gonna lose credibility there as

Keld Jensen (28:16):
Well. Yes, yes. No, I, I would agree with that. So that’s, that’s a great story. Yep. Yep.

Matthew Brickman (28:21):
So, k, I really appreciate you coming on today. This has been a great conversation. So if, um, if listeners are wanting to get ahold of you, how, how do they find you? Your books, your resources, what’s the best way, easiest way, fastest way?

Keld Jensen (28:36):
Uh, well, the book is basically, it was released on Friday. I think it’s, uh, piling up in stocks everywhere where you buy your book. So you can get in bonds and nobles, Amazon, wherever you normally buy your book. Um, it is available. Um, the work I’m doing, um, I’m quite easy to find is Google me. Um, I have a YouTube channel where there’s a lot of free resources on a lot of the stuff I’m doing. Um, if you want to deep dive into what I’m doing, um, we are running an online university called SmartShip class.com, uh, where you can pay to get classes. There’s both hybrid classes and self-paced classes. Um, so, and then obviously, yeah, there’s, there’s a number of books out there, a number of articles there. So just Google me, there’s a lot of free resources if you don’t want to throw money my way. Uh, and if you do want to dive in a bit deeper, there’s, there’s potential for that as well. So, yeah.

Matthew Brickman (29:26):
That’s great. Well, I greatly appreciate you coming on today.

Keld Jensen (29:29):
Thank you for having me,

Matthew Brickman (29:31):
Alrightyy. Have a great evening.

Keld Jensen (29:33):
Thanks to you

Matthew Brickman:
Occasionally Sydney and I will be releasing Q & A bonus episodes where we will answer questions and give you a personal shout out.

Sydney Mitchell:
If you have a comment or question regarding anything that we discuss, email us at info@ichatmediation.com that’s info@ichatmediation.com and stay tuned to hear your shout out and have your question answered here on the show.

Matthew Brickman:

For more information about my services or to schedule your mediation with me, either in person or using my iChatMediation Virtual Platform built by Cisco Communications. Visit me online at www.iMediateInc.com. Call me at 561-262-9121, Toll-Free at 877-822-1479 or email me at MBrickman@iChatMediation.com.