Matthew Brickman Interviews Keld Jensen – Author of Negotiation Essentials

Sydney Mitchell:

Hi. My name is Sydney Mitchell.

Matthew Brickman:

Hi, I’m Matthew Brickman, Florida Supreme court mediator. Welcome to the Mediate This! Podcast where we discuss everything mediation and conflict resolution.

 

Matthew Brickman (00:16):
Hi, and welcome to another episode of Mediate This. Today I am joined by Keld Jensen. Um, Kel, it is good to have you here.

Keld Jensen (00:24):
Thank you for having me.

Matthew Brickman (00:26):
Um, Keld, and I’m gonna let you dig, uh, dig in, and, uh, tell me more about, uh, yourself and the listeners and everything. But you’ve been doing this for a long time. You’ve been negotiating for a long time. You are, um, a publisher. You’ve, you do speaking engagements, um, you’ve done masterclass like, and from, from what I’ve learned and what I’ve read, you’ve been doing this, well, I don’t know either. You’ve been doing this twice as long as I have, or I’ve been doing it about half as long. I don’t know what sounds better. Like I’ve, I’ve been doing half, or you’re twice, twice as long. <laugh>. Uh, but yeah, tell, tell, tell, tell me just a little bit about like where you’re at, how you got into this, just a little bit about you.

Keld Jensen (01:09):
Yeah. Well, uh, short version is, uh, my mission in life I figured out is to help individuals and organization improve the way we negotiate. And I actually mean that, um, because I have learned throughout the years that we can all improve the way we negotiate. And that is good for everybody. Um, very, very briefly. Uh, my background is originally in, uh, technology. I was, uh, the CEO of a public company back in Scandinavia. I’m from Denmark originally before I moved to the us. And, um, I, um, I thought it was great at, at negotiation Matthew, because a lot of CEOs think they’re very good at it, even though they may never have studied it. And I never studied it. I just did it like a lot of people are doing. So what happened, and this is the short version, um, I hired a negotiation expert in Stockholm.

Keld Jensen (01:54):
Um, my former partner, uh, who’s unfortunately is not among us anymore. And he came in and moved me, um, in less than two hours from being unconsciously incompetent to consciously incompetent in the world of negotiation. Um, because he made me realize that what I thought I was good at, I was actually miserable at that. And that at the same time make me realize that God, I, I have to do something about this. Because I saw so many people just like myself who actually are doing it, but not knowing what they are doing. And again, some people are good at it automatically. Uh, it’s, it’s not the majority, but, but I do obviously mean great negotiators out there. But it, it’s, it’s, it’s a skill. It’s something you need to learn. It’s something you need to be educated in. And what scares me almost every night, Matthew, is how many people who are just going at it without having any formal background or degree or experience or educational, perhaps never even read a book about it. So since 1998, um, this has been my focus. Um, I help organizations and governments globally and improve the way we negotiate. I am an associate professor at four different universities. I’m a published author of 25 books. Um, I’m a keynote speaker and I live a brief negotiation. That’s the, that’s, that’s the short version.

Matthew Brickman (03:05):
That’s the short version. That’s, that’s quite a, that’s a, it’s quite a list though. Um, so yeah, it’s, I’ve been doing this for I guess, almost 17 years. And I had no idea that I actually liked doing this, could do this, wanted to do this. But life sort of happened. Um, I got into this when I got divorced. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, um, my ex and I couldn’t communicate, couldn’t get along. We, we kept going in front of the judge and the judge was tired of seeing us and sent us to mediation. Right. I was sitting in mediation and with my attorney and the mediators going back and forth helping us negotiate in separate rooms. ’cause we couldn’t sit in the same room together. We tried that and that that didn’t work well with us. Um, and I, and I sat there and had that epiphany going, this is the coolest thing in the world.

Matthew Brickman (04:00):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> like, I think I could do this. But at the time, I didn’t have degrees. I didn’t have training. And so actually I went back to school, got an undergrad. I mean, I started at, okay, I need an undergrad and did my entire education for this. Like, I may be one of the few people out there that maybe actually went to college and actually is using everything they went to college for. It’s not like, you know, you go to college and you end up doing something completely different. Yeah. Yes. Um, and so life sort of happened that going okay. And, and I found that I really loved, you know, I mean, I’m an, I’m an extrovert, so I love people. I love talking. I love, you know, engaging. I love, you know, that challenging thinking, but really honing a craft and look, you know, as, as I’m, you know, as a negotiator, I’m sure that we still learn every day.

Matthew Brickman (04:53):
Oh God, yes. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I mean, there’s, we’re, we’re never done learning because life happens. You’re like, oh, I could use this. Right? Or you meet somebody, you read something, you’re like, I could use that. Right. Uh, and so primarily, um, I guess for, yeah. I mean, until 2019, um, all of my education, all of my, just basically all my negotiation was based around family law. Right. Um, and then one day there was a Facebook post that my wife saw, um, advertising, um, Harvard Business School’s Negotiation Mastery program. And she said, you know, my wife is a paralegal, and, uh, she’s brilliant. And so, you know, she says to me, she goes, you know, you haven’t done any continual education training. I mean, other than, you know, just whatever, you know, the licensing is right. She said, you haven’t done anything since 2012. Hmm. And I’m like, yeah, I’m, I’m sort of hungry for some new stuff, <laugh>. So I signed up for it,

Keld Jensen (05:58):
Right.

Matthew Brickman (05:58):
And then started the course, had no idea what I actually signed up for, because again, my entire background was family law. And all of a sudden, right. There’s nothing family in Harvard Business School. It’s all business negotiation. Right.

Keld Jensen (06:13):
Right.

Matthew Brickman (06:14):
And then we’re negotiating with people all over, like, we had 434 students all over the world.

Keld Jensen (06:20):
Right. So

Matthew Brickman (06:21):
Then you get different cultures, different backgrounds, and all negotiators.

Keld Jensen (06:26):
Right.

Matthew Brickman (06:27):
And I was a fish out of water

Keld Jensen (06:31):
<laugh>,

Matthew Brickman (06:31):
Because I’m going, I mean, like, they’re like, okay, we’re gonna negotiate, you know, a bed and breakfast land deal. And I’m like, I don’t know how to do that

Keld Jensen (06:41):
<laugh>.

Matthew Brickman (06:43):
And I’ll never forget, I’ll never forget the first, the, the first mediation or negotiation we had. And, well, this was the other thing. I went from being a mediator.

Keld Jensen (06:51):
Right.

Matthew Brickman (06:52):
I’m not on a side. Right. I’m, I’m facilitating the negotiation too. And the training. No, now I’m, now I’m in the hot seat.

Keld Jensen (07:00):
Yeah. Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (07:02):
That’s complete. And so again, that was completely different going, wait, I have skin in the game. Right. So I learned, I learned in the first negotiation, it was funny ’cause we, my, I I had a guy from, uh, I think Germany who was a banker from Germany. Right. He was a negotiator for this bank. Right, right. I think it was bank in, in, uh, Germany. And so we, we negotiate and at the end of it, we have to, you know, write down, you know, how was the negotiation, what we think, you know, ’cause they gave us our scenario. And I remember going around the house to my wife going, I nailed it. I nailed this negotiation. I nailed this thing. And, and so that was what I wrote. Although, so then the professor then looks at what we, you know, what we did, how we negotiated Mm-Hmm. What we wrote.

Keld Jensen (07:43):
Right.

Matthew Brickman (07:45):
My counterpart did the same thing.

Keld Jensen (07:47):
Right.

Matthew Brickman (07:48):
I nailed it. Right. I nailed it. What what we learned though from the professor was we left $250,000 worth of value still sitting on the table that we didn’t recognize or look at.

Keld Jensen (07:58):
Right.

Matthew Brickman (08:00):
Okay. That never happened. Again, <laugh>

Keld Jensen (08:02):
<laugh>.

Matthew Brickman (08:03):
And so that, that was my first negotiation where I’m like, okay, it’s not failing. We’re in the business world.

Keld Jensen (08:09):
Right. Right.

Matthew Brickman (08:10):
And that was a whole learning curve, but everything that you can take back into what you do on a daily basis.

Keld Jensen (08:16):
Oh, absolutely. Yes. Yes. Uh,

Matthew Brickman (08:18):
And then I was hungry. Like, I’m going, okay, I’m really liking this. So then I applied, ’cause it’s, it’s my application and acceptance only. Right. I did apply then, uh, to the Harvard Law School Mastery Negotiation Executive Education Program.

Keld Jensen (08:33):
Right, right. And

Matthew Brickman (08:35):
I was one of 50 in the, in the, in the world that got accepted. Right. And, um, that, that was an honor. Right. Then, so I already had a taste of okay. Business. So then with that, we’re doing, just like you, it said, now we’re negotiating governmental stuff.

Keld Jensen (08:52):
Right, right. It

Matthew Brickman (08:53):
Takes that. And, and of course, now what was funny outta the 50 people in that, in that course, I was the only mediator.

Keld Jensen (09:01):
Right. Oh,

Matthew Brickman (09:02):
Wow. And everyone else, like we had, you know, the CEO of Delta Airlines, like you said. Right. We had Delta Airlines, we had banks, we had, uh, law firms from around the world, real estate agents. I mean, all the professional different, uh, uh, people around the world that, that, that were invited. But I was the only mediator. Mm-Hmm. And it was interesting because in between our sessions, people would come up, they’re like, alright, Matthew mm-Hmm. How do you know these things? Or How did you do these things? Like, like you were sitting in the middle and, and stuff. And I’m like, it’s a different perspective when you’re helping people negotiate rather than actually negotiating.

Keld Jensen (09:38):
Sure, sure.

Matthew Brickman (09:39):
So when you were, you know, you were in the business world doing your stuff, were you actually negotiating on behalf of, or were you tea and were you teaching how to negotiate? Were you teaching facilitation, mediation? Like, what were you doing?

Keld Jensen (09:54):
Well, it’s, it’s, uh, I, I loved your story, by the way, Matthew. It’s very interesting. And, uh, it, it’s funny that you said that you had, uh, previously been a role of, of helping parties to negotiate instead of negotiating yourself. And the fun part is that’s actually what I believe negotiation is all about. And that’s actually what I preach and what I try and help my students and clients do. Because what my approach to negotiation is, and not, I, I’m really not a big fan of spoken mirrors. You know, you have a lot of our colleagues out there in the world who preaches a lot about, well, it’s all about manipulating a counterpart and people, you know, trying to convince them and reading the body language and seeing when they’re lying. And I think all of that is fun in a circus. But in the real world, when two organizations, and I’m, I’m a commercial negotiator myself, when two organizations and, and the individuals sitting in that negotiation and meeting up, there’s only one real purpose for organization to negotiate with each other.

Keld Jensen (10:51):
And that is to create and distribute value. That’s it. End of the day. Um, so there’s a lot of mathematics. And to me it’s really teamwork. Because if you and I were representing different organizations, I would say to you, Matthew, I’m here today to help you reduce your cost, your risk, your liabilities, and help you improve your profit. Um, that’s, I see that as my purpose. Are you interested in me helping you doing that? Now, I can promise you, Matthew, when you try and do that in the real world, your counterpart will look suspicious at you. But they will say yes, because obviously they want you to help them, uh, with all of that. Right? Yeah. So when you get that acceptance, then the next step is that you ask them, and I see that your purpose here today is to help us reduce our cost, liabilities and risk, and help us improve our profit.

Keld Jensen (11:32):
So it’s actually teamwork right now, guys, we have to figure out how can we make two plus two equal more than seven? And I wanna be successful and create progress, but I don’t wanna do it at your expense. And I want you to be more successful than you were before you came here today. But that shouldn’t happen at, at my expense either. And I’m sure Now, I don’t know the simulation that you mentioned where you left several hundred thousand dollars on the table. Um, but that is basically what I see every day, every week, every month, Matthew, that you have organizations that think they’re great at negotiation. They, they, um, they do a handshake, they sign the contract, they leave the conference room, and they have no, and I apologize for my English, but they have no freaking idea that they left money on the table.

Keld Jensen (12:14):
Yeah. They don’t see it. They don’t realize it. They don’t capitalize it. Um, and that is to me, really my whole mission and purpose, because so many people, or too many people, let, let me put it that way, uh, true, obsessed with that approach to negotiation, that it’s a competition. I should win. You should lose. And if I win, I’m happy. And, and if you’re losing, and I’m sure you’re losing, I’m even happier. And, and, and one of the things that I really talk about in the book I’ve been doing for years is that we have to change the mindset of what negotiation is all about. And I’m, I’m very, very, uh, in agreement with everything. And Harvard is doing, Harvard is great. They have some really outstanding professors up there, and I’m working together closely with several of them. And, um, they are preaching the, the same approach that is really collaborative approach.

Keld Jensen (13:01):
You know, we have to identify that value. And, and I’m just emphasizing this, and they’re, I’ll shut up. I’m just emphasizing this again because I’m seeing, especially a lot of ex law enforcement and FBI negotiators coming into our world right now. Because what happens is they’re getting retired, then they get their pension, and then they’re sitting thinking, what should we do? Oh, we are great negotiators, and they are at hostage negotiations. Um, and I really admire what they’re doing. My God, they must be tough, and I wouldn’t do it, and I can’t do it, by the way. But what I often see is they come into this world and start preaching all the tools and trick the tricks and techniques that you can use in a hostage negotiation. But back to what I just said, a commercial negotiation is not a hostage, uh, case. You have to build trust.

Keld Jensen (13:47):
You have to build a relationship. I know a hostage negotiator will say, well, you have to do that, um, with, with, with the criminal that you’re talking to as well. Yes. But it’s not long term. You know, when you have convinced him to come out and release Yes, sir. Whatever he, he took, then he’s arrested and go to jail and you don’t have to talk to, to, to that guy ever again. Right. Yeah. And your business partner, hopefully you have to deal with him or her for the next 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 years. And you have to create value. Right. So, um, anyway, let me return that to you. What’s, what’s your take on everything I just said? So,

Matthew Brickman (14:18):
So it’s interesting. So in the world of family law, when I’m dealing with, you know, a, a divorcing couple, it is exactly what you’re saying. I need to win. You need to lose. No, I wanna win. So like, somebody’s trying to get away with taking as much as possible. Somebody’s trying to get away, giving as little as possible, right? Right. And so the analogy that I use to them is this. I say, look, a lot of times when you come into a negotiation, resources might seem scarce, but emotions are high. Judgment is clouded. Right? I said, it reminds me a lot of the kids’ game hungry, hungry Hippo <laugh>, you’ve got the hippos. And what you do is you sit there and you hit that, you hit that hippo so fast to grab as many marbles as possible, but at the end of the day, did you get what you wanted?

Matthew Brickman (15:07):
Or did you just get a marble? Right? Like, you may have gotten things that you don’t even care about, but who caress. I got ’em. And, and so I’m like, look, what we need to do is we need to slow down. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, we need to look at every piece. And this is what happened. This is what I learned in that first negotiation where I left $250,000 on the table. I learned the difference. And this was one thing that they just honed in on us at, at, at Harvard, was do not go into a negotiation to claim value. Mm-Hmm. Go into a negotiating or go into a negotiation, creating value. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And that’s what I try to do, is look at all as, you know, as, as a mediator, try to help everybody look at even the hidden things that may not look like they have any value.

Matthew Brickman (15:57):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But I, I, I tell people all the time we’re in, we’re in a mediation. We’re, we’re negotiating. Everything is up for negotiation. Everything is on the table. Right. Nothing is sacred. Right. So if even if you don’t think it has any value, tell me about it and we’ll see if it actually has value. Yeah. And then that way, like you said, two plus two equals seven mm-Hmm. A lot of times too, whether it’s business, and this is where I took business and family and sort of merged the two, just like you’re saying, they taught us in business that, you know what, like Apple may sit down with the MLSs and need to negotiate the AMLS season pass, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, that’s an ongoing relationship. That’s not a onetime done. And we’re never gonna see each other again. Right.

Keld Jensen (16:43):
Right.

Matthew Brickman (16:44):
There’s gonna be season. Okay, what’s the pricing for the next season? What’s this is a relationship. Sure. And so, I, I tell people in mediation as well, look, you guys have a kid together, your relationship is not okay. We’re gonna negotiate today. And you’re never gonna see this other person. You’re gonna see him at the exchange, you’re gonna see ’em at school, you’re gonna see ’em at graduation. This is relationship building. Right. Right, right. And so I agree a hundred percent with what you’re saying. And that was what they taught us was this is about relationship and about creating value, expanding the pie, not just eating my pieces and going, well, I’m full. Yeah.

Keld Jensen (17:21):
Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I I absolutely agree. And I, I I love what you’re doing, Matthew. You’re actually telling your clients that even though it is a divorce, and some people think that’s final, that is basically just the beginning of, of a long relationship. Especially if your kids, right? Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (17:36):
It’s the beginning, it’s the end. I tell people you are, you have just left three levels of relationship. Yeah. You left acquaintance intimacy, loss of intimacy, and now you’re transitioning into a business-like relationship. Yes. You don’t have to like or dislike who you’re in business with. It’s business. And that’s, and I’m like, if you can get, leave the emotion behind and think of this person is this is simply an equal CEO of the company and you’re running a company. And I was put in a business terms, I’m like, we are here to transition you into creating a business called Kid Inc. Right. You know, and by, and, and by doing it. And then I tell ’em, even your parenting plan, it’s the corporate docs that structure Kid Inc. They let the CEO EO know what you’re allowed to do and not allowed to do as ACEO. Yeah. And you are, are not going, why would you try to set up your CEO to then crash the company? Really? Absolutely. That’ss immature. And that’s emotional. Absolutely. We’re not dealing emotion anymore. And that’s how I transition, help them transition, going, we’re moving into a business. And now, you know, as well as I do

Keld Jensen (18:41):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know. Oh, yeah. I, I I I love the whole thing, Matthew. And, and what is really interesting, obviously, as I said earlier, I’m coming from a commercial background and see myself as a commercial negotiator, but my editor at, at, at, at McGraw Hill was really tough. So she forced me to write the book. So it becomes compatible with, with a divorce negotiation, with the student, negotiating with these faculty, with, uh, with anybody that is going on a trip with somebody who talk to, to the bank. Because a lot of the tools are actually identical as, as you said. And I, I just love that. I never thought about it that way. But you are now Kit Incorporated. Right? Now you’re running a business called a kit, and you have to make it work. And, and I completely agree with you when you are going through a divorce, there’s a lot of emotions, but the fun part is there’s a lot of emotions when you do a commercial deal as well. Absolutely. Um, you know, the word revenge, or people often laugh when I say there’s a lot of revenge in business, but they are, you know, people get offended, they get frustrated, they get annoyed. And there’s certainly payback in that world as well, because human beings are rational. I think we have to conclude that all of us, we are rational. Yeah. We love to call ourselves very rational, but we are not, um, my impulsive Yeah, sorry. Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (19:51):
Impulsive too. We rational and impulsive.

Keld Jensen (19:55):
Absolutely. One of my big hero heroes is, uh, professor Daniel Kahneman that I’m sure a lot of your listeners know. Um, he won a Nobel Prize in economics, even though he is coming from psychology. And the reason he did it, I’m simplifying obviously, is basically because he called out that all pe all people are rational. Uh, we make emotional decisions, and then we find the fact to prove that our emotional decision was correct. Uh, and we don’t even know it. And the fun part, when I’m quoting Kahneman, people get very offended, you know, when I’m sitting with the top of our organization and saying, why do you make so many rational, uh, uh, final conclusions? People get really offended. I, I’m not irrational. I’m very rational. And we just have to agree and accept that we are rational. Whether we are sitting in a, in a divorce negotiation, or whether we’re sitting in a merger, uh, acquisition emotions dictate a lot of the things we’re doing

Matthew Brickman (20:43):
Well, and a lot of times, I, you know, when, when, as a negotiator or a mediator, when we are seeing those pieces, and then we’re just shedding light on it,

Keld Jensen (20:54):
Right?

Matthew Brickman (20:55):
Because people are actually thinking and operating emotional, they take it personal, that, that then makes it difficult to negotiate. Yes.

Keld Jensen (21:05):
Then,

Matthew Brickman (21:05):
Then it, then when you take that, you know, when you say, Hey, look, why are you being irrational? I’m not being irrational. But that’s an emotional response, and then that now hurts the relationship that you gotta build to negotiate Oh, yeah. So that it creates a win-win situation.

Keld Jensen (21:19):
I can tell you, Matthew, the worst negotiation I can ever be a part of, and I know it before I step in, is when I’m doing a merger acquisition and I’m sitting with the owner of the company, uh, because he or she’s so emotionally involved in, in that company, obviously, that everything that the counterpart might be saying that could be perceived as criticism is not being accepted very well. And I’ve been sitting in negotiation where we had a counterpart that was giving us actually an outstanding proposal, but they said something that could be perceived as, as, uh, offending about the company. And my client, the owner just packed his bag and left. And I was trying to talk to him on the way out saying, it’s a great office, everything you wanted. Yes. But they said this and that. And I’m, you know, again, it’s all emotional, basically just like the whole divorce thing. Same thing, same level. You know, it’s, it’s a, it’s a, it’s, it’s, it’s a hard thing. <laugh>.

Matthew Brickman (22:13):
Yeah. Yeah. That’s a hard thing. Um, so, so going back to you, you had, you had mentioned, you know, a lot of, you know, FBI guys, you know, retire and whatnot. What I find in my arena of, you know, in, in the legal field is most of the, uh, mediators that are doing, you know, legal stuff in the family world, they are retired judges, retired attorneys. So again, it’s like, okay, I’m retired. It’s like, okay, now what? Well, you know, I used to argue, you know, I used to listen to people or, or whatnot. And so yeah, I can do this too. No, not exactly. Like, you know, no. Now what’s interesting was when I first had the idea of negotiating

Keld Jensen (22:58):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,

Matthew Brickman (22:59):
You know what my, you know what my, you know what my long-term goal was? Hostage negotiation.

Keld Jensen (23:06):
Oh, yeah. Well, there

Matthew Brickman (23:07):
You go. That was my goal. I’m like, that would be so much fun and so amazing. And people, people looked at me, they said, okay, fun. No. Amazing. No. And so, and so, and, and they, and they would say, Matthew would, like, how would you be able to sleep at night? Right. If you knew that you knew were negotiating something and the hostage killed, and, you know, or the, the, you know, the guy killed a hostage. Right. And I said, and I said, I would sleep okay. They’re like, okay, you’re just not right in the head. I said, no, because you know what, I would know that I at least tried, I wasn’t standing there with my M 16 or my ER 15 just waiting to shoot. I know that I tried. Right. And look, Mm-Hmm. I would, I would pull every skill set of every tool that I was ever be presented, and I would do that.

Matthew Brickman (23:58):
Right. So that was my goal. So what was interesting was by the time that I was finally certified ready to go, had my degrees and everything, I did not know this. I aged out. Right. I, I was too old to, to, to join the FBI. Oh, wow. Okay. ’cause here to, and then I didn’t know there was like a limit. I’m like, they got old guys working with the FBI, why can’t I start now? There’s a mandatory, I think it was a 25 year retirement. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> by a certain age. And so it’s a mandatory, well, if you start too late, you don’t hit the mandatory, you can’t do it. So no, you have to be a certain age. And I’m like, okay. Age. And I’m like, okay, fine. Now what? I’m like, no. No. Okay. Family. We’ll stick with family. Right. But I do enjoy, you know, back a number of years ago, you know, with, with the real estate issues and stuff, I was doing some foreclosure stuff.

Matthew Brickman (24:55):
That was fun. Um, I, I, I did a couple small business, uh, stuff, real estate, um, HOA boards, you know, uh, personal injury. It was good. Uh, but it was a lot more, a lot more eventful, fun, um, rewarding dealing with families knowing that, you know, we’re actually making an impact. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. Absolutely. But, but, but I’ve really enjoyed the business world. And then what’s interesting, <laugh>, I have a friend, um, she, she called me up one day. I’m, I’m gonna transition here to, to something. Um, but, uh, I got a, I got a call one day from her. She said, Matthew, I got a letter in the mail from my, uh, credit card company. And, um, they’re saying that I owe this, that whatever, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I’m like, well, just call ’em and negotiate it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> sure.

Matthew Brickman (25:52):
And she said, she said, oh, I wouldn’t know what to say. Yeah. I’m like, right, you want me to do it for you? She’s like, right, would you? Mm-Hmm. I’m like, yeah. So, so we went out and had breakfast. And after breakfast, we, you know, she, she gave me the letter and I looked at it. I’m like, all right, yeah. Here’s a number. Lemme call. I said, Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, what do you want? What are the terms that you want? What would you like to happen? How would you like this? Okay, fine. So we called, put him on speaker. She said, she said, she said, Hey, you know, I’m sitting here with, you know, you know, I have someone, you know, that, that, you know, um, that I, that I’m authorizing to talk on my behalf or whatever. So yeah, not too long we negotiated a settlement and it’s like, and, and, and she was like, oh my gosh, it was so amazing. Thank you so much. Yeah. And, and then it’s like, there’s nothing that’s off the table for negotiation. No, no. Right. I mean, whether it’s, you know, um, whether, you know, whether it’s bargaining for, I don’t know, buying something. People try to negotiate on cars, people try to negotiate on, on different things. Um, do you do that? Do you recommend you, do you teach like negotiation on like buying stuff? Bargaining? Like how do, how do you negotiate your utilities down? Like <laugh>

Keld Jensen (27:09):
Especially,

Matthew Brickman (27:09):
It’s expensive. Are you able to negotiate gas? Can you negotiate at, at, at the grocery store? Like,

Keld Jensen (27:15):
Yeah. Well, it’s, it’s, it’s a great question. Let, let me just take one step back before I I get into that. And you know, I was born and raised, as I said earlier in Denmark. So I have a European background. I’ve been in the US for, I dunno, 13, 14 years now. And one of the cultural differences because there, there, there are quite a lot of cultural differences between Europe and us. And one of them is, and I’m generalizing obviously, but Europeans are naturally negotiating more than the average American, really. Um, I call again, and I don’t want to offend anybody. I love this country, and I’m a citizen as well, but a lot of Americans are bargain hunters and not negotiators. And for whatever reason, they accept, put it when they get the terms dictated by the major corporations. So when the electricity company says, well, that’s it, or the local gym raised the price, or, um, what, what, what have you, a lot of them are just saying, well, um, I don’t like that.

Keld Jensen (28:07):
So I’m going to change to another supplier if that’s an option. And I’m often, but why don’t you try and negotiate that? And you know, when, when I provoke people with that statement, a lot of them look pretty curious and say, but can I do that? And I said, well, last time you went out and buying a car, did you just pay the price? No, obviously not. I negotiated that. Right. So, so we have all agreed as a, as, as as a country that we can negotiate price on a car. But why can’t we negotiate when we go to the grocery store and buy 20 bottles of wine, because that’s a big purchase. Why can’t we negotiate with the electricity company? Why can’t we negotiate with the bank? I mean, it, it’s something that I would love Americans to be more aware of, and especially in these days, because I think we can all agree that prices have gone up like crazy.

Keld Jensen (28:53):
Um, you know, since post covid, everything has just gone up. I was just seeing numbers the other day, and I was thinking, this is scary. I mean, I saw numbers on certain areas that were 30 and 35% and 40% price increase in just the last two, three years. Right. And you know why? That’s because consumers accept it. I mean, if consumers didn’t accept it, the price wouldn’t increase. Because I am working on the side of some of the suppliers in this world, and yes, some prices on raw materials have gone up, but they have not gone up 30, 35 or 40%. There’s a lot of companies that’s just using this opportunity to increase their profit. And I, I don’t know whether the average consumer have realized that. But at the same time as the average consumer is paying a lot more for the same product as they pay way less four or five years ago, the company producing that thing has increased their profit quite a lot.

Keld Jensen (29:43):
Yeah. And, and at the same time they’re selling is saying, well, prices have gone up quite a lot. And again, it’s, it’s back to the philosophy about why do the average consumer just accept that instead of challenging that thing? And that’s all about negotiation. Now, of course, as I said earlier, Matthew, I’m living and breathing negotiation. I’ve been doing it for many, many years. So should we stand at the local grocery store and negotiate when we’re buying a gallon of milk? Obviously not that’ll be a waste of everybody’s time, right? But we have to be careful and sit down and think about where would it make sense to negotiate, you know, what makes a huge impact on my family’s budget? Um, and then challenge that. Because what is quite interesting is that any savings that you make on every, per on, on any purchase, uh, of any size, it’s, it’s, if it was a company, it’s going straight to to, to, to the bottom line.

Keld Jensen (30:32):
It’s profit. And the funny part again, is Matthew, if you compare the average consumer to the average procurement officer in a company, he or she would never accept the price from a supplier. You know, if they received the proposal, that’s the first thing they do. They start negotiating saying, thank you so much for your proposal, but we have to sit down and talk about terms of payment, delivery, warranty, uh, installation, what have you. They just don’t accept it. But the average American tuum, again, I’m generalizing, they received a proposal on something and say, yes, okay, or the alternative, let’s get some alternative proposals. They don’t even have to think about, we could actually negotiate this thing. So one of the things that I’m really focusing on in the book as well is just trying to give people a checklist. What is it I should do?

Keld Jensen (31:15):
Because back to the woman you talked about a lot of people just saying, but I don’t know what to say. You know, I, I, I don’t even have that, the words that, that I should need. And the great thing is, I don’t think negotiation, Matthew is rocket science. It’s, it’s a little bit about being brave enough to ask questions. Right. And, and the funny part, I don’t know whether people have been thinking about that, but when you leave a company, for instance, if you’ve been, if you’ve been a customer for a, a cell phone company and you, uh, inform them, Hey, I’m going to quit. I’m moving to somebody else. What, what is often happening? Then they’re coming back to you and saying, but, but we have a special prize for you if you stay. And I’m often sitting there thinking, that’s almost fraud, because you have, you have been able to give me that prize all along, and you’re now offering to give it to me when I’m telling you I’m leaving you. Right? Yeah. So obviously that’s been negotiable and been on the table the whole time. And I just want really the average American consumer to think about that it is negotiable. Everything in life, more or less is negotiable. I’m normally saying there’s only two thing you really can’t negotiate. Death is one of them. And, and love is the other one. Everything else is negotiable. Even the IIS are negotiable. Matthew. Oh,

Matthew Brickman (32:25):
I, you know what’s, you know what’s interesting? I have recently found that out because just recently, and I’m saying like within the past month of mediating, I’ve had I think like five clients that have owed between 35 and $50,000 in back taxes to the IRS, and they’re on payment plans. And then they even got the payment plan negotiated because their income changed, therefore they got a lower payment. Right? Yeah. Taxes you can do. I’ve recently, I’d say so, so for years and years and years, years and years, I have had an account with DocuSign. I love DocuSign. I’ve always used DocuSign. I used it when they were real, like, and I think the choice was Adobe. Adobe and DocuSign. That’s right. It was nobody else. Now there are so many different companies, right? So I’ve had ’em for years and, you know, I pay my, I pay my annual fee.

Matthew Brickman (33:18):
And now I didn’t even understand how they billed or how it even worked. But, you know, I paid my, you know, I paid, I sent out documents, it was fine. Hmm. Then about a month ago, a month and a half ago, I get an email from DocuSign. I, now, I think it’s a scam. So I, so like you said, I start asking a lot of questions like, okay, wait a second. What, okay, who is this? Okay, how do you have my information? Okay. And then I’m logging in and I’m like, okay. I’m like this only because what they were telling me, it was brand new information. And I think a lot of times when consumers get brand new information these days, instantly it’s like, it’s gotta be a scam. Right? So, so I get through the whole thing, okay, this is DocuSign. Because what they’re telling me is, I’ve exceeded my limit.

Matthew Brickman (34:06):
I’m like, I don’t know what limit you’re talking about. I don’t have a limit. And they’re going, Matthew, you’ve exceeded your limit. Well then, and so of course the first thing I ask ’em, Cal, is if I exceeded my limit, what’s my limit? <laugh>, <laugh>? I’m like, and then, and so and so they tell me, and I’m like, okay. Right. Right. If I exceeded my limit and that’s my limit, then how can I still send out documents? Right. <laugh>, I’m like, wait a second, this, this doesn’t sound right. Well, so, so, so again, not, I’m not afraid to ask the questions going, I don’t understand. Right Now, I will tell you I was very upset, right. Because all of a sudden, ’cause like, this is Saturday and I’ve gotta mediate on Monday, and I need to have my ability to sign documents available. Right? So, so I’m asking all these questions, looking into it, and, and I find out, long story short, I find out I have an old account. I told you I’ve been using ’em forever and ever and ever. Right. I had an old account, they need to move me to a new account because the old account, they can’t turn me off. Right. <laugh>. So when I hit my limit, they can’t stop me because back then they didn’t have the technology to do it. They didn’t need it. And now my big, and they can’t shut me down. Ah.

Speaker 5 (35:24):
Right, right, right. Okay.

Matthew Brickman (35:26):
So, but they said, look, we need to get you on a new package. We all this stuff. All of a sudden I went from, um, I went from $300 a year to 3,500. Wow. A year. That’s how much I exceeded my limit. Right. They, they said, based on what you’re doing, this is what you need. I’m going, okay, you’ve lost your mind. Right. At that point, I’m like, okay, I’m done talking to you. We’re just gonna, and so, you know what, I stepped away from the, from, from the, from the negotiation table. Right? Right. I didn’t terminate negotiations. I simply stepped away to then look at my options. Right. So I called my brother who is in tech. He was built two companies. He’s in tech. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And he told me something. He said, Matthew, he said, tech is, tech is on pennies not dollars.

Matthew Brickman (36:23):
They operate on pennies, not dollars. It’s tech, it’s not like it costs them things similar to what you were saying, but there’s a value. And that’s how then they raise their prices because it’s a value to you, but it only costs pennies, not dollars. Right. So I, so then I just started looking at lots of different options, Googling, okay, what other companies, what are the features? Right? What are the pros, the cons? And I kept circling back going, I really don’t wanna learn anything new. I’ve been using it forever. I’m a creature of heaven. Cool. And then I’m looking at safety, security, stability, and I’m going, I don’t wanna trade the security levels that I have because these are legal documents. Right? Right, right. So I return to the negotiation table. And so I, so I just start asking more questions. ’cause I still don’t understand their pricing.

Matthew Brickman (37:12):
Right. And I cannot negotiate what I don’t understand. Sure. And so I start, and so then they said, okay, you know, this is how, you know, we charge per envelope. And I’m like, okay, define envelope. Okay, well what if I send six documents? Is that each of them an envelope? No one envelope. When I finally understood how they bill Mm. I was ready to negotiate. Right. Exactly. And I found, wait a second, this is tech, and they’re charging me almost $3. And they’ll be like, me gonna the post office and buying a stamp and just send out a letter and they’re charging me three bucks. Yeah. Right. There’s no way. Um, right. But I had to, I had to ask the questions. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> to understand how it’s all done. So now I’m in a position to negotiate. Right? Right. So I spent all of Sunday Right.

Matthew Brickman (38:02):
Negotiating with them. Right. And by Sunday night, I negotiated a three year contract that I was happy with. It was more than what I was paying. Right. I went from 300, which was an old, old, old, old price. They don’t even have that even available. Right. I went from 300 to a thousand. Right. But what I did was I negotiated from $3 an envelope. Right. With dollar 61. Right. Right. Exactly. You know what, now could somebody have gotten lower? Maybe, maybe not. I don’t know. But you know what? It was something that between the two of us, they were willing to live with and I was willing to live with. We put the pricing in for three years. So, you know, just like you’re, just like you’re saying everything is negotiable.

 

Matthew Brickman:
Occasionally Sydney and I will be releasing Q & A bonus episodes where we will answer questions and give you a personal shout out.

Sydney Mitchell:
If you have a comment or question regarding anything that we discuss, email us at info@ichatmediation.com that’s info@ichatmediation.com and stay tuned to hear your shout out and have your question answered here on the show.

Matthew Brickman:

For more information about my services or to schedule your mediation with me, either in person or using my iChatMediation Virtual Platform built by Cisco Communications. Visit me online at www.iMediateInc.com. Call me at 561-262-9121, Toll-Free at 877-822-1479 or email me at MBrickman@iChatMediation.com.