Matthew Brickman Interviews Stan Tatkin Developer Of The Psychobiological Approach to Couple Therapy® (PACT)

Sydney Mitchell:

Hi. My name is Sydney Mitchell.

Matthew Brickman:

Hi, I’m Matthew Brickman, Florida Supreme court mediator. Welcome to the Mediate This! Podcast where we discuss everything mediation and conflict resolution.

 

Matthew Brickman (00:12):
So, I’m so excited today to be joined by Dr. Stan Tatkin. He is a clinician teacher, author who has integrated neuroscience attachment therapy and current therapies. And he is the developer of a psychobiological approach to couple therapy called pact. And, um, him and his wife have created the Pact Institute to train other psychotherapists and, uh, this methodology. And Dr. Tatkin teaches and supervises family medicine residents in California. Also the assistant clinical professor at U C L A, David Geffen School of Medicine and Direct training programs throughout North America and globally. Um, also has authored a number of books, um, I think seven that I counted. Is that, is that, is that accurate?

Dr. Stan Tatkin (01:03):
It’s, that’s good enough. I think I’m on eight, but

Matthew Brickman (01:06):
Seven. Yeah. Seven or eight. Seven

Dr. Stan Tatkin (01:07):
Will do. Seven will do, yeah.

Matthew Brickman (01:08):
Seven or eight. But your latest book, which just came out, um, April 25th, called In Each Other’s Care, A Guide to the Most Common Relationship Conflicts and How to Work Through Them is now out, um, in hardcover ebook, uh, as well as audiobook,

Dr. Stan Tatkin (01:27):
As well as audio. Yeah. Um,

Matthew Brickman (01:28):
Yeah. Um, so I’m so excited to have you here. Thank you so much for coming on.

Dr. Stan Tatkin (01:33):
Thank you, Matthew. It’s good to see you.

Matthew Brickman (01:35):
Good to see you. So, um, I just wanna jump in with your new book. Sure. I loved how you organized the book. It’s a different organization than most books and chapters and, and whatnot. Can you talk a little bit about just like, the organization of it? ’cause it seems different than most therapy books, couples books, self-help books.

Dr. Stan Tatkin (02:02):
I wanted to do something different this time. You know, I’ve written quite a bit and, uh, and this, this book kind of presupposes, people have read at least Wired for Love or listened to Your Brain on Love. ’cause uh, this focuses on, on complaints, common complaints Heard in my clinic, and that’s how it’s organized. But this time I’m really focusing on structure, the need for structure, uh, organization, uh, uh, as developed by both partners. And also driving home the idea that it’s the manner in which we interact when one or both of us is under stress, that causes threat to accrue. And that’s, uh, those two things are the big, big problems that will undo any union.

Matthew Brickman (02:53):
Yeah. Well, and, and, and I find even as a mediator, those are problems that not only undo, but can also prevent, you know, a peaceful resolution even after a divorce or co-parenting. There’s still that, that absolutely conflict, um, and inability to communicate.

Dr. Stan Tatkin (03:12):
Yeah. I I, if they didn’t have, uh, a co-constructed architecture and a co-constructed, uh, uh, culture between the two before divorce, they’re certainly not going to be easy, uh, to, uh, deal with in co-parenting, uh, post divorce. Right. That’s for sure.

Matthew Brickman (03:33):
Do you find, um, in your practice doing couples therapy, do you find that, that people do set structure within a marriage?

Dr. Stan Tatkin (03:43):
No, <laugh> I don’t <laugh>

Matthew Brickman (03:46):
Because I find that they don’t,

Dr. Stan Tatkin (03:47):
I, I I, I think it’s astonishing to me. Um, it shouldn’t be because I’m the same, uh, only in couples. It’s the only alliance union that’s forged by two independent adults in a free society that does not think at all about co-constructed, uh, uh, the relationship, um, hierarchy, rules of engagement, how we’re gonna protect, uh, ourselves from each other. And also, um, how we’re going to, uh, um, lead, uh, everybody else. What’s the most important thing? Other, other organization, be it a dance troupe or a military troop, or a company or a rock and roll band, um, generally they don’t do anything. They don’t get people on board unless they have a shared purpose, a shared mission, a shared vision, and how they’re going to treat each other. Uh, that’s it. But married couples don’t do that. It’s, yeah, they go into it for love for other reasons, and they think that this is just gonna work itself out. And of course it doesn’t. ’cause we’re human primates, deeply unreliable species

Matthew Brickman (05:01):
<laugh> Well, an animal. And one of the, one of the first times that I ever, um, had heard of you was your TED talk back in 2016 when you’re, when, when you were talking about, um, and it, I think it was called re uh, relationships are hard. But why, and you were talking about, about, um, primitives and ambassadors.

Dr. Stan Tatkin (05:24):
Yes. That

Matthew Brickman (05:25):
Spoke to me. I was, um, I had watched that it was one of the most engaging 10 minutes. That was it. In a way. It was almost, it was good, but it was bad because all of a sudden it’s flashback of my ex-wife, our conflicts, conversations, and then brought me even to current conflicts and current conversations going, oh, oh, that’s why. Um, because like you said, I mean, there’s no rules. I mean, you know, my job as a mediator is to set up rules. Right. Um, and I always tell people, I say, say, look, you know, when you’re in the first three phases of a relationship of acquaintance intimacy and loss of intimacy, there’s no rules. You make up your own. But once you get to that, this isn’t working anymore stage. Mm-hmm. And now you’re gonna come and we’re gonna set up a parenting plan. Now, for the first time ever in their relationship, there’s gonna be rules, accountability, responsibility, and consequence. And we set up the structure that if they had that from the beginning, they may not be sitting at my table.

Dr. Stan Tatkin (06:31):
Right.

Matthew Brickman (06:33):
Um, and, and, and, and a lot of ’em, the, you know, the, the way that, you know, a lot of times people don’t like structure. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they look at it as like, control. It’s threatening. But I tell ’em, you know, it’s a shield, not a sword. It’s protective and preventative. And there’s safety. When you know what you can and cannot do and what others can and cannot do to you as well.

Dr. Stan Tatkin (06:54):
It’s the basic premise for civilization. Uh, uh, you know, religious precepts, uh, early laws, um, you know, thou shalt not kill. All of those are there because people do kill <laugh>. People do rob and steal, people do covet. Right. Other people’s, uh, partners. Uh, and, uh, and unless there is, uh, some social contract for how we’re gonna get along and, and what will be fair and just will continue to do bad things. And so it’s, it is a must for all of us as it is for children. Yeah. Uh, you wouldn’t, uh, you wouldn’t dare hopefully raise children without any kind of limits, without any kind of rules. Um, uh, watch what will happen if you do that. So we’re the same. We’re, uh, only a little bit of away <laugh> from being a two year old. Uh, and so it’s naive to think that any two people over time can actually get along without violating each other’s rights, privileges or a sense of, of, you know, of fairness and sensitivity. Uh, it’s impossible. So there has to be some mechanism, some, uh, social contract, uh, or set of social contracts between people in relationship, um, to, in order to last what people would like, uh, last a lifetime. It’s possible to last a lifetime. Lifetime. But I’m also interested in happiness as well. So happiness and longevity, there’s only one way to do that.

Matthew Brickman (08:29):
So, so, you know, for me, I create those contracts because everything else has failed. But you’re, as a clinician and as a family therapist, you’re helping people work through the, are you helping them create or discover or establish within their relationship when they, when they

Dr. Stan Tatkin (08:48):
Come to you? I, I insist on it. Um, I have come to be a true believer in, in what we’re calling secure functioning. Um, sounds like attachment. It’s not the same as secure attachment. Secure functioning is a set of behaviors based on social contract theory. Um, uh, this is two people, uh, coming together based on terms and conditions, not emotion, not love, but, um, what are we gonna do for each other and what are we never gonna do? So say us both. Right. Uh, this is, uh, deal or no deal. Right, right. And right. But that, but there are complications of course. Otherwise, everyone would be doing this. Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (09:31):
It sounds easy enough.

Dr. Stan Tatkin (09:33):
Uh, it’s simple. It’s just very hard to do.

Matthew Brickman (09:36):
Yeah. One of the things, um, um, in, in, in your book, under the, uh, section, I think it was section or Yeah, it was, it was chapter 10. Under children, of course, naturally being, that’s what I do every day. I jump, jump right to that section going, okay, lemme see what’s here. And you had said something there that just jumped out at me. Um, it was under the section of my partner disapproves of my parenting. ’cause of course, you know, I I, I deal with that all day long, which is why we’re setting up a parenting plan so that we can try to get everybody aligned. You know? Yes, there’s gonna be nuances and you can do what you do in your home and your rules and whatnot. But the general overarching, you know, structure is there. And you had, you had put there that, um, you, you had said, uh, both partners are responsible for the trajectory of the interactions when stressed either could intervene and change the outcome if they held in mind that they are psychobiologically tied together, where one goes so goes the other. That was awesome. I I, I mean, I read that going. Yeah. ’cause you know, so, so many times when they’re, when when I deal with people and they’re trying to get aligned or co-parenting, it’s almost like they wanna set the other one up for failure. It’s like, you do realize if they go down here going down with them, right. Like this is a unit and

Dr. Stan Tatkin (11:04):
They don’t, it’s a unit. Yeah. It’s a, it’s a survival unit. Uh, many times I’ll, I’ll, I’ll put it this way, if I were allowed to bind you and your partner’s inner legs together for a month, okay. You would, you would absolutely understand the concept of a two person psychological system of interdependence. We’re two separate people, autonomous. But we have to work together in order to do even little things like going to the bathroom. We would have to be able to talk, we would have to be able to agree otherwise we would be in physical pain. Uh, we’d fall all the time, or we wouldn’t get anything done. And so the idea of we and us is drummed into people if the culture insists on it, like in the military, like cop car partners, like any other team, um, where people wanna win, make money, stay alive, uh, they know this, right?

Dr. Stan Tatkin (11:59):
They know this. They, uh, they’re only as strong as, uh, as their, uh, as their team is in unity, uh, uh, and, and agreed upon in terms of what they are going for, what they are trying to avoid. Right. Partners, no different. And partners that are parents, hopefully before they see you, um, they’re a couple. First, they shouldn’t remain a couple at all times because it’s a couple exercise, uh, or project to raise children. They’re passing through, they don’t own them. Right. This is a project like all other projects. And so, you know, unless a partner is reportable, I’m talking about are you willing to report your partner today, um, to child protective services because you believe they are a danger? Sure. If they say no, then I know that we’re dealing with something quite different. A preferential issue, projective issue, an issue of unresolved trauma from childhood, whatever.

Dr. Stan Tatkin (13:04):
Um, it is actually bad for kids to have parents, um, fighting over parenting. Uh, it’s like when two generals fight, soldiers will die. Sure. And so, uh, we know that kids need different parents. Uh, this is throughout the mammalian world. Uh, the more adults that are, uh, in, in caregiving positions benefit the child. We know in terms of, of, uh, neurobiological development at key periods in life, plus that they are different, is a feature, not a bug that you and I are co-parents in your strict, and I’m lenient cool. That I like to talk and you never talk fine. Right. That we have different ways of doing things, but we both agree on the vision, what we want for our children. You both go down a list and we will agree, and we both agree on our purpose to be the best parents. Uh, we can be. The rest of it is being able to work collaboratively and cooperatively, uh, on the matter of childr, which is an improvisation. Yeah. And this is where you get into people who refuse to play this as a team sport there. They play it only as a solo sport, and that won’t work for anybody. And it’s really, really bad for the kids.

Matthew Brickman (14:27):
Yeah. And, and, and a lot of times, um, you, you know, you were saying, you know, hopefully they’re a couple, there’s a number of times, um, where they’re, I, they, they, they were a couple for a night. Right. And, and of course, you know, completely opposite. And, and this, this is an interesting, uh, the latest statistic is 40% of the children being born currently in the US are born out of wedlock. So mom and dad were never married. They were never a couple. They were never in an intact family. Um, and so, you know, that has its own set of, you know, like, like you said, like mine versus ours. Um, and then of course, can

Dr. Stan Tatkin (15:08):
I, can, can, can I ask you one question though? Yeah, yeah. Just, uh, just a matter of clarity Yeah. Of, of those, uh, did, did, did the study show that of those, um, born out of wedlock? Were those couples committed to each other? Um, or was it, ’cause there are a lot of more couples now that are not marrying, but they are committed to each other. Right.

Matthew Brickman (15:27):
So, so this was just, so what they were looking at is they were looking at children born to an intact family that then ended up in, you know, children of divorce. I see. And then children that were never married to mom and dad, that, that, that were not legally married. So Yeah. They, you know, they may have been like, uh, you know, living together plain family, but just not legally married. And so they fell on the other side of the spectrum. Got it. Um, but, but a lot, a, a lot of those, um, you know, when I get them under the law, there’s a legal presumption that the mother is the mother. ’cause she gave birth to the child. There’s no legal presumption that dad is dad until he’s legally adjudicated the father. And so mom sits with all power control, decision making, time sharing. And dad only has a legal obligation to support. So when they come in, it’s all about, okay, well now we’re leveling the playing field. You’re both gonna come in together. And one is having to surrender. And there’s, you know, the personality, the tug of war, and what I get a lot, I actually had this recently with a couple, just like you were saying, they, they said, we are different. We are completely different. We have nothing in common whatsoever. We are polar opposites. And like, like it was a bad thing. Right.

Dr. Stan Tatkin (16:52):
And, and, and also as if, as if that were, um, abnormal as if that isn’t the case everywhere. Yeah. And it’s also blatantly, uh, patently untrue. Uh, I can prove that, but go on. Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (17:04):
Well, so what I told her, and, and I want you to prove that in a moment, but what, what I told her is I said, you, you do realize that if the two of you were absolutely identical, well then one of you is not necessary. I said, I said, it’s okay that you’re different. The problem is when you look at different as bad, or you demonize it, or it’s, it’s, it’s a negative thing opposed to, well, it’s different. How can I learn from it? How can I engage it? What do I have to learn? What can I share? You know? Yeah. And then engage. But it seems like, you know, at least society as a whole, for the most part, if you’re not on my team, you’re the enemy. Yes. And it’s bridging that gap. Going different is okay. Like, it’s okay to be different.

Dr. Stan Tatkin (17:54):
You, you, your audience should be aware of our species, uh, the human primate and how we, we’ve been wired since the beginning. We haven’t changed. Uh, uh, and well, since, since, uh, we became, uh, on, uh, to be on the planet, um, one of the features other than being very warlike and aggressive and fickle and moody and opportunistic is our xenophobia. We are, we otherwise, we otherwise, and we otherwise are neighbors. We otherwise, people of color, we otherwise, people who are different gender, different sex, different orientation. But we otherwise our partners as well. Uh, and that what you were talking about made me think of that, uh, uh, that, uh, partners will otherwise, uh, feel disgusted, which is a, a another, uh, form, uh, uh, another emotion that xenophobia, uh, you know, is associated with. And this is a very dangerous, very, uh, pro self antisocial, uh, viewpoint.

Dr. Stan Tatkin (18:55):
But all human beings will do it. Uh, if we think that somebody is not, uh, in agreement with us, if they’re too, just like what’s happening today with the bifurcation or the polarization, uh, you know, it’s happening between, uh, pretty much everybody. Right? Uh, tribalization that will always take place because people cannot find where they agree and where they are the same. We have always been different. Uh, we’ve always unionized with people other than, uh, people familiar with us that’s gone on since the beginning of time. Right. Uh, and how did it happen? Because circumstances led to us realizing we had the same things in common. Uh, the enemy is, uh, of my enemy as my friend, right. As an example. Um, so how, how have we unionized over, over the millennia? Um, in, in everything we’ve done, there has been an organizer or organizers that think in terms of where do we agree and where are we the same?

Dr. Stan Tatkin (20:03):
If you go down the list with partners of where they will agree and where they are the same, um, that’s the, that’s the place where people can start to work, right? There are differences are flattened by looking to where they are the same. Everyone can do that. That is, it is the only people that cannot, are people who are absolutely, uh, <laugh> rigid and unwilling to accept another person to work with another person. Uh, and uh, and that’s it. Everyone can find where they agree. You and I disagree on vegetables and fruit, but we both want food. Sure. We agree,

Matthew Brickman (20:46):
We agree on food,

Dr. Stan Tatkin (20:47):
We agree on food. We can, we can actually, um, deal with the other stuff. Right? Sure. We can deal with the other stuff. Um, there’s always a way to find where you agree and dis and where you are the same, but we’re lazy, lazy creatures. And low hanging fruit is exactly that, where we disagree, where we’re different. So your, your person example reminds me of that. That is a kind of social emotional laziness or incompetence or inability to think bigger than just on the level of the weeds, right. Where we’re different and Right. So when I hear partners say, we’re so different, I, you know, it’s like, duh. It’s like, yeah, of course we’re, and, and well, and people are annoying. Yes. People are disappointing. Absolutely. People are a pain in the for sure. Sure. Now what?

Matthew Brickman (21:37):
Yeah. Now what? And that, and, and, you know, as a mediator, you know, taking, taking people through a parenting plan it is going through and, you know, a lot of times in the beginning, you know, we’ll just have just a little conversation and I’ll get an insight of, you know, personalities, you know, reading them and whatnot, and then start taking ’em through. Not necessarily in the order that it’s structured, we’ll get there, but starting with, okay, do you agree on this? You agree on this? And we build that momentum knowing that then when, like, they may have said a little something, something, and I catch that and I’m like, okay, that’s gonna be maybe a hot button. We build on that momentum because then it’s like, you wanna blow this whole thing up, all the great work you’ve done over that, come on. You know?

Dr. Stan Tatkin (22:29):
Now are you, um, uh, I think, is it called Super master? What is it called? Something, uh, master, um, you know, where the courts, uh, uh, say, okay, we’re, we’re assigning someone like yourself. Right. Um, who’s going to be basically the arm of the court, right. Um, they’re gonna decide what you can and cannot do. This is not, uh, this is not up to the two of you, right? A special master. Special master.

Matthew Brickman (22:53):
Oh, special master. Okay. No. So, so when they come and see me, they retain a hundred percent power and control. Okay. They even have a little bit more power than a judge does because they’re in mediation and they can create whatever they want. The judge has certain laws, statutes, rules they have to follow. But when they come to me, I’m all about, let’s open up the world. Let’s get creative, let’s expand the pie and create value instead of just claiming value. And so I work with them to build out their, their rules, get everything, you know, get that hierarchy established like we are the parents. You know, the way that I tell people like what a parenting plan is, is we’re transitioning out of the emotional relationship now into a business. You two are gonna be equal CEOs of the company. Your parenting plan is the corporate docs that structure your company.

Matthew Brickman (23:48):
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And when we talk time sharing, we’re simply talking about as the c e o of the company is what day as the c e o are you going into the office and you’re in charge of running the company. And when I put it into that business type mentality, well, I’m like, you don’t have to be emotional about who you’re in business with. You don’t have to like or dislike it’s business. You’re a, you’re a C E O, but then are you gonna try to set your other c e o to go down? ’cause you do realize as your company too, when you’re going down with them, right. And so, and so, it’s all about, you know, giving them all the options as we build out everything from decision making and education and medical, and the time sharing and notifications for traveling and, you know, build out all the rules that, again, maybe if they had taken more time, you know, and maybe premarital, do you do premarital or,

Dr. Stan Tatkin (24:44):
I love premarital. I wish everyone, I, I, uh, I, I got into, uh, this before I, I started seeing couples based on, on, uh, my wish to, uh, do prevention work. Okay. With, with infant, with infants and caregivers. Okay. Um, that, uh, I couldn’t get enough people in because, uh, we have an issue in this country culturally with prevention. Correct. Right. You know, people come in when they’re in, in

Matthew Brickman (25:08):
Crisis damage control. It’s not preventative maintenance.

Dr. Stan Tatkin (25:11):
That’s right. That’s, yes. Yeah. And, and so whenever anybody comes in for premarital, I am delighted, you know, because that is really the best possible situation for setting this, uh, this whole thing up in the beginning. Whereas when I see people 10, 20, 30 years down the line, they’ve accrued so much, uh, threat and memory that it becomes a biological matter. They cannot even really be in the room with each other without, uh, fighting. Right. So, uh, they did that. Um, but, uh, you know, it’s, it’s wonderful to be able to start at the beginning. Yeah. And I don’t always get a chance to do that.

Matthew Brickman (25:48):
Yeah. Well, and, and, and for me as a mediator, um, you know, setting up the parenting plans and whatnot is so preventative maintenance. And, you know, of course, we cannot capture every single potential creative idea that a human will have to break the law or, you know, right. Do something wrong. But we try to capture as much as possible so that then they have structures. So they can go out there, they can ignore their parenting plan, they can do whatever, but if they can’t agree, at least their structure, and we try to make it as preventative maintenance as possible so they don’t have to keep going back to the court and doing damage control. Um, which is why, um, in Florida, it’s, um, I’m, I’m a statutory requirement. Like, you, you have to, everything has to go to mediation. Um, you cannot get inside of a courtroom without a mediator.

Matthew Brickman (26:45):
You have to go at least one time, maybe twice. Um, right. ’cause the judges don’t wanna deal with it. And they want, they want the people to take control. And so I’m there to help them. And so, you know, um, sometimes they’ve got attorneys to then guide them through the legal aspect. But in mediation, we’re really more interested in what’s in your best interest now, what are your rights and entitlements, you know, you can go to court for rights and entitlements. And it’s all about getting creative and setting up those rules so that, you know, the children aren’t running, you know, running the home, which I always call that the inmates running the asylum. Like, no, you are the parent. You know?

Dr. Stan Tatkin (27:25):
And let me ask you, uh, and, and when you have, uh, I’m sure occasionally you come across bad faith actors, right? Um, that are not going to abide by anything. Yeah. They’re just gonna do what they want. Um, and they fire you. Let’s say, uh, do you, uh, can, uh, are, are, are you called upon by the courts to submit a report so that there’s a paper trail of bad behavior or non-compliance? No,

Matthew Brickman (27:50):
No. No. So, so strangely enough, um, compliance with mediation is you, you have to show up, listen to my opening statement, and that’s compliance. I’m like, that’s not compliance. Like, come on. Um, but usually, I mean, usually if somebody is going to come into it, you know, wanting to break the rule, it doesn’t matter whether I set it up. It doesn’t matter whether a judge orders it. Like they’re just that personality type, that they think that they’re above and beyond anything and everything. But at least, you know, if, if they do come and enter into an agreement, well, they’re bound by contract law, they’re then they’re bound by a court order, and there will be ramifications for their behavior. Whereas without it, there’s, there’s no rules. There’s no court order, so they can’t be held accountable.

Dr. Stan Tatkin (28:47):
Yeah. In this case, I’m thinking of the children. I couldn’t care less about the partners now, but, uh, but in this case, I’m thinking about bad behavior, uh, affecting, uh, the children.

Matthew Brickman (28:57):
Well, but what happens, what happens though is bad behavior on part of a bad actor or, or a parent, then gives the court the power to come in and take the children away from them and put them more with another parent. So, um, so yeah, I mean, there, there are, you know, there’s protection in place once it’s there that if a parent is not going to follow it, then their timesharing can be taken.

Dr. Stan Tatkin (29:24):
We have a lot of people that we, we train, uh, mostly couple therapists or therapists who are interested in doing couple therapy. Uh, and they could be psychiatrists or, uh, you know, uh, social workers, whatever. But we also do have some mediators that also go through the training. Okay. Um, which I find very interesting. Uh, in fact, one of our advanced, uh, certified, uh, therapists is a mediator and, and finds this approach, the approach we use as really helpful. Yeah. Um, I, I’m, I’m, I’m wondering, do, are there, um, are there supervision courses for mediation where people go like yourself to, uh, to, uh, get tuneups or to be helped with, again, it’s difficult work. We were talking about this before we, uh, went on online. Um, this is very hard to deal with. Right. Um, what kind of support is, uh, is there in the state of Florida for mediators?

Matthew Brickman (30:24):
So we’ve got, um, the, the Florida Supreme Court has set up our certification program and, and everything. And so, um, most family mediators, um, interestingly enough, are retired judges, retired lawyers, re retired therapists, retired social workers, retired teachers. Um, most ther, most mediators, it’s what they do just to dabble in do something. But they’re retired from their main career that they did forever and ever, um, to do family. Um, it’s, it’s, you know, usually either law degree or master’s, usually in some area of social science. So again, we get a lot, we either get, you know, the therapy side or the legal side one. Right. One or the other once. And, and so, you know, you’ve gotta take their 40 hour course, then you’ve gotta do a mentorship program with an existing mediator. So I do, I think I do probably about eight to 10 mentorships a year, um mm-hmm.

Matthew Brickman (31:29):
<affirmative> for new mediators. Um, and then, um, and then once they’re certified, there’s an annual conference that, um, we have, um, I haven’t been in years. It’s not worth, it’s not worth the email that they send out. Um, it’s really lacking. So what I have done is I have actually, um, you know, sought out my own additional education. So, um, so like back in 2019, I did Harvard Business School’s Negotiation Mastery Program. Um, and then at the end of 2019, I did Harvard Law School’s Mastery Negotiation Executive Education program. Um, so I’m seeking out my own continual going Alright. You know, I mean, yes, we have CMEs that we’ve gotta do, but we can, you know, download an audio, you know, classes take it. Like, does that really mean they we’re educating, we really know what’s going on. We’re challenging ourselves. No. Um, so a lot of it is, you know, self And for me, you know, I mean, I’m not retired <laugh>, I’m, I’m 48, I’m not retired. Um, and I’ve been doing this for almost 17 years. And so people pe people say it’s like, Matthew, whatcha gonna do when you retire? I’m like, I’m already doing it. I’ve got like a 20 year jump on it.

Dr. Stan Tatkin (32:53):
Right. Yeah. I I don’t think I’ll retire unless I lose my mind. And then, in which case I must, but, uh, yeah. But that, but that’s, you know, that’s not, uh, gonna happen with me either. Um, you, you mentioned, uh, negotiation. Yeah. Which, uh, is a big part of secure functioning. Yeah. Uh, that we expect, uh, partners to be able to think to, because you, if you’re working in a two person system of interdependence, it has to be good for me and good for you. Right. We can’t do anything unless, uh, I satisfy your concerns and your needs at the same time I satisfy mine. Otherwise you will confuse me for someone who doesn’t care about yours. Right. So, so then how do we work out our differences? How do we get each other to do things? And the answer is, uh, learning how to bargain and negotiate, uh, to win-win. Yeah. Something that most people are not acclimated, not accustomed to. Yeah. But in teams it’s a must. Yeah. Uh, otherwise there’s a price that you pay immediately. Uh, if I, if you lose, uh, at my, uh, my benefiting, um, I’m gonna pay for it soon. Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (34:03):
One of the, uh, one of the things I tell people when, you know, how, how a lot of people negotiate it, it, it’s interesting, you know, ’cause you know, as, as a mediator, I sit in the middle, I help facilitate the conversation, I help negotiate the terms, but I don’t have a dog in the fight on, on either side. I’m a neutral. But how I see a lot of people approaching a negotiation is they approach it like that old kids game. Hungry, hungry hippo. Yeah. And I, and, and I tell ’em, and you know, and I tell people, I say, you know, usually people come to mediation and they are hitting that hippo as fast as they can to grab as many marbles as they can because emotions are high. Resources are scarce, and it’s just grab anything and everything. The problem is, okay, what did you get?

Matthew Brickman (34:50):
Do you even care about what you’ve got? Or you just, like, you just grab anything. I’m like, okay, why don’t we actually get strategic talk about things and why don’t we actually create value instead of just going in and claiming and getting stuff you don’t even care about? And so that’s a lot, that’s a lot of what I do. Taking ’em through the different, you know, agreements, whether we’re dividing up retirement accounts or a home or child support or alimony or timesharing, is let’s look at all the different possible options, negotiate things. And a lot of it is finding out not what they want, but why do they want it.

Dr. Stan Tatkin (35:29):
So I, I’m wondering, um, you, you’re talking a lot like me. Um, uh, I hear a lot of similarities in how you, uh, see things. Uh, have you ever considered, um, uh, you know, uh, preventing divorce, uh, being a couple therapist?

Matthew Brickman (35:44):
So

Dr. Stan Tatkin (35:45):
<laugh>.

Matthew Brickman (35:46):
Alright. So interestingly enough, so my father was a, uh, my father was a, uh, pastor for years. He was a preacher. Uh, my parents are now missionaries over in Africa. Um, and, but for

Dr. Stan Tatkin (35:59):
What part? I’m just curious.

Matthew Brickman (36:00):
Uh, Kenya.

Dr. Stan Tatkin (36:01):
Kenya,

Matthew Brickman (36:01):
They’re in Kenya and they did marriage counseling for years and years and years and years. So I was raised in that environment, understanding that environment, which is, which, which has sort of given me an edge because I went to school for mediation from a law point of view. But I was raised with the other, you know, and my father’s a trainer with Myers-Briggs. Um, and so, you know, he, he does a lot of stuff in coaching and and whatnot. And so, you know, I’ve got this interesting dynamic of both of law, psychological, um, and it’s interesting ’cause I’ve actually worked with some local therapists who have sent me their people that, you know, they’re, they’re, the couples are in marriage counseling, and they have said, go see Matthew, go through a mediation and look and see what life is going to look like. And then you’ll know whether or not you pay attention what things are gonna look like.

Matthew Brickman (36:59):
And so I’ve worked with therapists and said, you know, you know, we will go through just a, like an hour, just, okay, this is what things look like. This is how it’s structured. And for many of ’em, they’re like, what? Like, really? I’m like, yeah. You know, it’s like, Hey, you’re gonna get your kid half the time. And no, there’s not that much in child support and alimony, like after equitable distribution. And what do you guys have, like, you, you know, when we go through it. And so I’ve, you know, a lot of that is preventative. Um, so that their eyes are open going, pay attention to your therapist, pay attention to that work because this is what life’s gonna look like. So I had one recently where we did their divorce, but they actually said, don’t file it. We wanna hold it as a potential post nu because we’re now gonna work on our relationship. So we took their agreement, which would be their divorce decree once they submit it to the court. Right. And made it a postnuptial agreement. So, got rules in place now as they work on their marriage,

Dr. Stan Tatkin (38:09):
Which means they could actually have a future.

Matthew Brickman (38:11):
Correct. Because they actually have rules in place, which again, again, I people spend more time prepping for a wedding than prepping for the day and years after the wedding. Like, they’ll, they’ll invest all this time and money for this one day, but it’s like, okay, what happens the next day and the next day and the next day? And you didn’t do any preparation for any of that.

Dr. Stan Tatkin (38:37):
Right. Uh, uh, speaking to the choir, brother <laugh>, uh, uh, did your parents ever wish that you would become, uh, you know, uh, a, a a marriage therapist or a couple’s therapist? No,

Matthew Brickman (38:52):
No. No. They were, they were like, you know, I’ve got my own. It, it’s interesting ’cause my dad and I have, um, have had many conversations about, you know, his coaching his clients. And, and it’s interesting ’cause he said, he said, you know, you sit in a unique position. ’cause now they’re, he’s doing more one-on-one coaching, not not doing marriage counseling anymore. And he said, you know, you sit in a unique position because I get to talk to one person, help them coach them, but I’m missing the other 50% of that person. Yeah. And he said, you get to sit there with both of ’em talking perspectives, helping guide them with you, get both of ’em where I’m, you know, I’ve got really, I’ve got one party that’s interested, one that I’m don’t even know if they’re interested. They’re not here. And you can give them all the tools, but if the other party isn’t on board, and that’s be,

Dr. Stan Tatkin (39:44):
That’s because it’s the system. You can’t work with the system. Half of the system. It’s the sound of one hand clapping. So unless you have both people, you are blind and there’s no way to know what the truth is. Uh, it’s hard enough to know what the truth is with two people in front, with two

Matthew Brickman (39:58):
People <laugh>.

Dr. Stan Tatkin (39:59):
But it’s impossible if you’re just dealing with one person. Yes. You’re just dealing with the, um, the person in their head. Yeah. Right.

Matthew Brickman (40:06):
If they are perspective of the situation, which could be true. I tell people, um, I tell people, you know, a lot of times they’re, they’re like, you know, they’re lying. That’s not the way it happened. They’re wrong. And I said, okay, from your perspective, I said, it could be that you’re both absolutely right, and you’re both absolutely wrong. It just depends on your perspective. And it’s okay to have a different perspective. Just like we were talking about. It’s okay to be different. Yeah. But when they start saying you are wrong, like, but it’s a different perspective.

Dr. Stan Tatkin (40:40):
I know. That’s again, the human condition. Yes. That’s something that we all have to deal with. Yeah. Um, um, and most people won’t deal with it, uh, as, as a, uh, as uh, an illusion. Right? Yeah. These are illusions that we carry with us. Um, our narratives are, you know, I’m unhappy. I don’t know why. Oh yeah. I just realized it’s you. Um, and that’s how most of us operate. Yeah. Uh, we externalize, uh, everything. And uh, and, and that’s why we go to war. That’s why we sue each other. That’s why we break up, and that’s why families, you know, cut off, uh, because of that kind of, uh, of thinking, which is to your point earlier, part of the primitive structure of the brain. Yeah. Which is shoot, first ask questions later. Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (41:28):
And I, I, I did that a lot in my first marriage and even after my first marriage for, for years. And it wasn’t until I actually stopped blaming others and said, okay, I’m the common denominator here. Why am I doing what I’m doing? And when I started to then figure out what are my buttons, what makes me tick, what motivates me? When I started to figure that out, it was a lot easier to start weeding through relationships faster. Because it was like, oh, no, no, no. Been here, done that checkbox. Okay. Goodbye. Okay. No. Okay. No, because I knew who I was so that I knew what I could, I I knew what I was supposed to be sharing. ’cause I knew who I was rather than who are you? I don’t know. Who are you? I don’t know. Let’s go find out together. And then you find out going, I don’t think I like you. Well, I don’t think I like you either. It’s like, did you even do the time, just like we were talking, did did you take the time to invest before you just started building this corporation? No.

Dr. Stan Tatkin (42:32):
The the thing about corporations or businesses is that, uh, it doesn’t require that you be in love or hot for the other person. Right. Right. In fact, it’s better if you’re not. Yeah. Um, that, that, that, that could be a big problem. So, uh, so because couples are unique in that it’s driven by emotions, driven by nature’s tendency, not, you know, it’s not, uh, the same for same sex, but there is, uh, there is a certain amount of, um, uh, chemical influence when we meet somebody, uh, that, uh, changes our judgment, so to speak. Um, which is why we have people around us that are supposed to vet. Right. Uh, and tell us the sounding boards. Yeah. This may might not be the person for you, I’m just saying. Uh, yeah. And if we ask, if we ask, because we’re on drugs and we’re not, uh, actually very good at, uh, at being, uh, um, you know, uh, thoughtful, let’s put it that way.

Dr. Stan Tatkin (43:30):
Uh, nature doesn’t care about relationships only procreation continuation of the species. And so we’re, we’re talking about something that is, is a very difficult thing with couples, romantic couples because of the attachment system. Now, I don’t think, um, the attachment system is engaged nearly in the same way with business partners or cop car partners, right? Sure. I think it is to some degree because of their reliance on each other to stay alive Sure. In terms of cop car partners. But in, in human pair bonding, romantic pair bonding, um, there exists this, this biology that’s built into us that makes us stick together. Um, and, uh, it’s kind of the, I can’t quit you biology for better or worse, uh, for better because it keeps us together when we could easily just go Tata, uh, and not raise our child together. Um, but it’s also for worse, in that many times we shouldn’t be <laugh> in that union.

Dr. Stan Tatkin (44:36):
Yeah. Um, and now we’re gonna do things that we’re gonna complain about because I can’t leave you, uh, simply because I think the attachment system is love, which it is not. It is a biological mandate, uh, based on survival. And that’s why it’s so hard to think straight and to do the things we’re talking about. Really thinking and planning. It takes some amount of maturity and I think experience having failed Right. And relationships in the past. Yeah. Um, to begin to think or having seen it in your family of origin. Right. Yeah. Having experienced that. Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (45:14):
And I was, I was 19 when I first left

Dr. Stan Tatkin (45:17):
Young,

Matthew Brickman (45:18):
Very young when I met my ex, and I had my, my, my kids at 21 and 23, I didn’t even know who I was. I mean, like

Dr. Stan Tatkin (45:27):
Functionally still a teenager until 26 or 34.

Matthew Brickman (45:30):
Yeah. And well, then I was divorced at what, 27 then was single parent, and then decided, okay, I’m going back to school and went to school. And, and then all of a sudden it’s like, okay, you know, hit 40. And it’s like, okay, wait a second. I think I’m actually learning something finally. Yeah. You know? Um, but yeah. And, and so, you know, my kids are 25 and 27 right

Dr. Stan Tatkin (45:54):
Now. How many, how many? 25, 27. You have? 2 25

Matthew Brickman (45:56):
And 27. My, um, and, um, it’s amazing. They survived my ex and I and all of our chaos and, and whatnot. But, um, but a lot of it was, um, you know, having structure rules in place, um, you know, so that, you know, I mean, I think everybody wants and craves that structure. Yeah. Um, but then there’s, there’s the human side that resists it as well. Like, you want it, then you

Dr. Stan Tatkin (46:28):
Resist it. Resist, yeah. Resist it. Um, uh, especially if we, if we never really had it, uh, uh, that’s usually the problem. So if I’ve never really had it or have had such strict parents that were not reasonable, uh, or it felt like it wasn’t fair, uh, most of the time, then I might buck that system. But on the whole, a lot of people that never had any limits or boundaries, um, they exist in, uh, a world where there is no master, there is no God, there is no limit. And that’s anxiety producing. So the question is, you know, if I don’t work or live within a container that I, that I create or that others and me create, am I really free? Right. So that’s a problem when we’re dealing with people who don’t like structure. Um, uh, they don’t like the idea of being controlled, but they’ve also not had the experience of how safe and secure and how free it feels to actually have a structure Yeah. That you co-create that’s not created for you. Right.

Matthew Brickman (47:36):
And, and, um, and in mediation, you know, when, when we’re creating, you know, some, sometimes I will get a little pushback going, golly, this is restrictive. You know, golly, there’s a lot of rules. Um, and there’s a lot in there that’s just common sense. Uh, but I, but I, you know, common sense should be a superpower. It’s so rare these days. Um, but, you know, sometimes I, you know, I, I, I will say to someone to say, you know, you have been looking over your shoulder, wondering if they’re trying to set you up, what they meant when they did that with, with this, that, or whatever. I said, wouldn’t you like to live without having to look over your shoulder? And they’re like, yeah. I said, then we need to get the structure in place so then you’re not having to constantly wonder, am I, you know, are they trying to set me up for a power play?

Matthew Brickman (48:22):
No, we’ve got structure in place. Um, but a lot of people, and I, you know, a lot of people that, that I, I end up, you know, mediating for at all, all different ages, generations. Um, it seems like the baby boomers that are unfortunately then getting divorced, they’re a lot more apt to structure. Um, I think they, because they were raised with structure, it was just a different generation. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, the really, really young ones. This new generation. I had one the other day where they were 20, you know, extremely resistant to any structure. Yeah. Um, but there are also of a generation that is a virtual world where there’s no boundaries, there’s no borders, there’s no structure. You can just do anything and everything in a virtual world. And they’re like, well, so why do we need structure? Uh, so that you don’t have to continue the chaos that you’re currently experiencing. It’s like, that’s why. Um, and so it’s getting them on board with, look, it, it, it’ll be okay. Come on. It’ll be okay. Um, and they’re required to do it. So it’s one of those things come easy, come hard, but you’re gonna come. The choice is yours of how, how you want that to happen.

Dr. Stan Tatkin (49:41):
Fascinating.

Matthew Brickman (49:43):
So, well, I greatly appreciate you coming on, uh, Stan, and Thank you. It’s been a pleasure, uh, talking with you. And, um, if people want to pick up your book, they can get it on Amazon, right?

Dr. Stan Tatkin (49:56):
I can get anywhere, anywhere they want. Uh, probably, uh, uh, bookstore. Yeah. Any, any out outlet? I was gonna make a joke, but I couldn’t think of one. Um, <laugh>. Uh, so yeah, that any bookstore, uh, and, um, uh, if people are interested, uh, in their, in their, they’re in the mental health field and they want to be trained, uh, in this approach, which actually is a, it takes some time. It’s a poly theoretical approach. Um, uh, they can go to, uh, the PACT Institute, that’s p a c t, uh, institute.com. Also, my wife and I do, uh, couples workshops, uh, virtually throughout the year. Okay. And we also do, uh, retreats internationally. We’ll be doing one in Portugal next, uh, year. Uh, and, uh, people are invited of course, and they can look, uh, that up, uh, by going to the site.

Matthew Brickman (50:51):
Awesome. Well, again, I greatly appreciate you coming on. Thank you so much.

Dr. Stan Tatkin (50:57):
Thank you so much, Matthew.

 

Matthew Brickman:
Occasionally Sydney and I will be releasing Q & A bonus episodes where we will answer questions and give you a personal shout out.

Sydney Mitchell:
If you have a comment or question regarding anything that we discuss, email us at info@ichatmediation.com that’s info@ichatmediation.com and stay tuned to hear your shout out and have your question answered here on the show.

Matthew Brickman:

For more information about my services or to schedule your mediation with me, either in person or using my iChatMediation Virtual Platform built by Cisco Communications. Visit me online at www.iMediateInc.com. Call me at 561-262-9121, Toll-Free at 877-822-1479 or email me at MBrickman@iChatMediation.com.