8. Matthew And His Daughter Cassie Discuss The Struggle Within The Parent Child Relationship (I)

Sydney Mitchell:

Hi. My name is Sydney Mitchell.

Matthew Brickman:

Hi, I’m Matthew Brickman, Florida Supreme court mediator. Welcome to the Mediate This! Podcast where we discuss everything mediation and conflict resolution.

Matthew Brickman:
So far in the Mediate This! podcast, Sydney and I have laid the foundation for how we view conflict, how to resolve conflict and the roles and stages that we have in relationship. But before we actually get into the introduction of mediation, I had the privilege of sitting down with my daughter, Cassie, and talking about the parent child relationship and the problems that we experienced. And I wanted to bring that to you because I know that it will give you encouragement and hope for you parents out there that might be struggling with your kids and give you some insight on how we were able to make it back. So I really hope that you enjoy the next episode or to Cassie. Let’s get to it. Hi everyone. I’m joined here with my daughter Cassie. Today. We’re going to come to you. We’re going to talk to you about parent teen conflict and while she’s not a teen anymore, we went through a living hell for about a year.

Matthew Brickman:
Obviously we made it through it because we’re sitting here telling you about it. So say, hi Cassie. So we’re just going to start and I’ll actually just give you a brief overview. So we went through a really, really difficult period, and we made it through, but we were estranged for an entire year. And didn’t know if we’d ever make it back. So we thought that we would share our story with you. I share it a lot in mediation. Cassie is able to share that a lot with people that she encounters in teenagers and kids, she works and kids ministry of Christ fellowship. And so we thought that we would come and just tell you our story. And hopefully you could gain some hope or some insight. So Cassie let’s get going. So this happened when you were, what, how old were you at least?

Cassie:
I know 17, 18, 17 years old. I was a junior in high school when this happened. Yeah, I remember I remember 17 because one of the things I remember is when it all went down, you were in high school, cause your birthday’s in December. So you turned 18, but you were still in high school because, um, when, uh, when we got divorced, we had a parenting plan. The parenting plan said that, you know, you emancipate, and this is just what the law says is you emancipate when you turn 18 or if you are still in high school within anticipation of graduating before 18, well, then you have asked me when you graduate. And I remember that this went down, you were still in high school, you were about to start actually, you were about to start your senior year. You were about to start your senior year.

Matthew Brickman:
And because when this all went down, I ran to the court going, you know, I have a parenting plan and that wasn’t exactly how the judge saw it. So let’s just back up with everybody, you know, because this is so easy to get ahead of ourselves. Um, so I remember it was a, um, your mom came down for a weekend and I remember that, um, you asked, um, and for, for you guys that don’t know my story or whatever, their mom lived out of state. Um, and I had the, I had the kids and she would come down occasionally and visit. And so she came down to stay with her mother. And, um, I remember that you wanted to go there for the weekend. And I was surreal. I was like, Oh, I have a weekend off. And your brother then said, well, I want to go to I’m like, great.

Matthew Brickman:
And so you went for the weekend and then Sunday came around and I remember Matthew came home because he had to go to work. He was working at the fresh market and you asked if you could stay for dinner and watch walking dead. And I remember yet now I’m dating myself to when this was, it was like season one or two or something like that. And so I remember, um, I remember that I lost track of time. No, no. I had, I had called you and said, Hey, do you do I need to cook dinner? And he said, no, no, no, no. How many dinner here? And, uh, watch walking dead. So I thought, okay, well, you know, you’ll come home after you didn’t come home after. And I didn’t even realize, I think it was like 11 o’clock. I’m like, wait a second.

Matthew Brickman:
Cassie never came home. Matthew came home from work, but you didn’t come home. And then I figured, well, your grandmother works at St. Mary’s. You guys were living in sterile or she was living in Stuart. Your mom was in sewer with her and your school was down in West Palm. So I was like, Oh, well, I guess she’ll probably just take Cassie to school the next morning. And then I remember that I texted you and said, Hey, um, you didn’t come home last night. And the response I got was we talked to the police. You can’t make me come home. I’m staying here. I was like, what? Like, we didn’t even have an argument. We didn’t have a fight. We didn’t have any bad words. Like we didn’t like it. It was just, you’re not the boss of me anymore. And that’s just how it went down. So I’m going to stop there and I’m going to let you tell then from that, how that all worked out and all the backstory to that. And then we’ll get to Monday when I sold your car.

Cassie:
Yeah. Well, I know at the time I also had, um, my, at the time boyfriend, I am now married to I completely different guy. Yes. To my wonderful husband, Jefferson. Um, I love you so much, but I was dating this one guy and him and his mom and actually his brother came down. It turned out to be a weekend because my mom was home. Um, cause she was looking to back down, came from back down from Georgia, like in the Savannah ish area. And so I just remember just kind of hanging out there and not knowing, but looking back now. Um, they, I, my family was my mom and my grandmother were kind of feeding me. I want to say, I don’t want to say lies, but they were just feeding me negative things about you. To me, that kind of made me like, Alrighty, well, I closed my rebellious phase cause I never done anything bad at all.

Matthew Brickman:
Oh no, you were a great, I mean you were a great kid. I mean, I could really ask for better, which is why this whole thing was such a shock at all because we never had issues ever. And you know, and I had you guys like 90% of the time, I’m like, you know, your mom gave me custody back then it was custody. We don’t have custody employed anymore, but back then it was custody. And I got you guys think when you were like six and eight or seven and nine and then raised you. And she wasn’t even around. I mean, she lived in New York and in Georgia and you know, I mean, I had you as like 80, 90% of the time and we never had issues.

Cassie:
Yeah. And so it was just a back and forth with her and my grandmother just feeding. Uh, they were,

Matthew Brickman:
I mean, not all the gory details, but just like, it’s just like, you know, fear listener, you know, for the listeners that, you know, like one parent maybe trying to, we call it, um, in, in the legal world casting, we call it parental alienation where one parent will try to alienate the other parent by trying to brainwash or trying to convince the child that the parent does something else. Or what they’ll do is they will hang what we call the proverbial carrot. It’s sort of like a horse to get a horse to move you dangle the carrot in front of the courses, constantly chasing the carrot. So one parent may promise things to somebody in exchange for them doing something because otherwise they would normally do these types of things. So, I mean, is that the type of thing that you’re talking about?

Cassie:
Yeah. It was more of a brainwash, you know, you know, as you said, dad’s like you have raised Matthew and I up to, you know, so well in such a good job up to this point. And my mom, I guess saw an opportunity with ones. I was about to be 18 year old and it’s like, okay, this might be my time to actually get Cassie because she knows I’m a, I’m a huge daddy’s girl at heart. I, and I’m still to this day, huge daddy’s girl. And so she, I think her and my

Matthew Brickman:
Well, both you and your brother were only because I guess I had you guys, I mean, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t really say you guys were daddy or mommy. I mean, I just had, I mean, like I just had you guys. Yeah.

Cassie:
And so they were just kind of brainwashing me. I don’t remember the exact wording, but I just know that they were just trying to brainwash me time to get me to their site. And, you know, as I’ve gotten,

Matthew Brickman:
Were they promising you things in order like, Hey, you know, if you do this, then

Cassie:
I felt that there was a promise in there. I just, again, I don’t remember all that. It was, yeah, it was definitely

Matthew Brickman:
You’re 18. You’re now 24. So it was fun. Yeah,

Cassie:
It was a while ago. And a lot of things has happened in between now and then. And so I just remembered that night, actually again, my, that Sunday night, because I know I did remember asking you about, Oh, I did something does ring off in my head. It was, you were on top of me with my online schooling and I was so mad at you for, you know, for some reason I was so mad at you for being on top of my online school. I noticed this online photography class I had to take on Florida virtual at the time. Cause I had cause my, for the class of 2015, we had a requirement to take an online class to graduate. And so I’d said to take a photography class and something somehow in there you got, were really on top of me. And I got so mad, so angry while at the same time my mom and my grandmother were brainwashing me. And then it came to that point at the, that night is that is when you, I just had the, we call the place to see like, Hey, what is going on? And what can we do? And then that’s the next day I, I texted you, um, from that point or

Matthew Brickman:
I remember the only issues that we were having. I remember a couple of the issues that we have in and when we finally made it back a year later and we’ll fill in all the blanks there, I remember that you had told me that, you know, cause I had asked you, you’re like, okay, what happened? Because the only thing that, you know, I forgot about the online class until you mentioned that, but you know, Hey, I was being a parent, do you need to take a class? You weren’t doing well, I’m trying to motivate you and make sure that you’re on track, you know, it’s parenting. Um, and I know that a lot of times with, with kids and teenagers, especially teenagers, you know, one of the things that I learned after you in therapy when I was going through stuff with your brother was, and this is, this is the hardest thing for fathers.

Matthew Brickman:
Um, because you know, mothers are usually the loving, the, the, the, the more caring the nurturing fathers tend to be more of the discipline areas when you have a fractured home and whatnot. Unfortunately, you know, moms have to take on roles that they typically don’t have dads have to take on roles that they typically don’t have. And so mothers need to be nurturing, but also be disciplinarians and fathers need to learn how to be nurturing, not just disciplinarians. And one of the hardest things that nobody ever told me about until we went to therapy was, you know, especially with teenagers, is there is that, that time in their life where you stop as fathers, you stop dictating and you start advising you, you change into more of a, an advisory role where you’re simply giving advice, but, um, you’re no longer in charge of them.

Matthew Brickman:
And yeah, you’re a safety net for them until they turn 18 because at 18 they’re going to answer to the law. Um, but then it was really, really hard for me to transition. And I didn’t know that transition with you. And so I think there was a little bit of a power struggle, but the things that I remember, the only things I remember that, that you had told me at, you know, a year later, like, okay, what happened was, I remember the only times we ever had an argument was about the schooling. Um, it was about, um, washing your hair and taking a shower.

Matthew Brickman:
It was about exercising and it was about, um, um, eating habits. And so, you know, I mean, I’m going to get even education. You need to be clean and sanitary. You need to be healthy, eat right. And exercise. And those were the things we clashed on. You went over to your mom and grandmothers, and there were no rules like that. Like you were able to do what you wanted to do. And so, yeah, and that happens a lot in a fractured home and, and paternity issues. And divorce is one home that may have all the rules and one home may have little or no rules. And of course the child who should never be in charge, like that’s like the inmates running the asylum, like, you know, criminals, you know, the, the criminals in jail are not in charge of the wardens in charge, but a lot of times parents are over-correcting, you know, like, like, like if you’re driving and you, you know, you know, go slide you overcorrect, you’re gonna flip the car.

Matthew Brickman:
And that’s what happens a lot of times as parents over-correct and all of a sudden they give the decision making authority to a child. And so, yeah, when they’re brainwashing, when their parental alienation, when they’re dangling that proverbial carrot, and then the child is then given the power and authority to start making those decisions, it gets very, very dangerous. And that’s where then conflicts arise and that’s when then relationships get severed. So, so talk to us about like that Sunday, like, okay, I taxed you and said, Hey, are you coming home for dinner? And you were like, no, I’m going to, you know, eat dinner here and watch walking dead. What was going on on that side? Like, did you know that you weren’t ever coming home? Did you like,

Cassie:
I think up to that point, I didn’t know exactly if I was going to come home or not, but again, I had the carrot dangling in front of me. I had not the right voices to help me make the right choices. Um, and so because of that, that’s, you know, kind of sprout to what we had to go through. And so I just had the wrong voices, you know, saying, Hey, you should do this. You should do that. You know, I

Matthew Brickman:
You’re told you don’t have to come home. You can stay here. You do your own thing. Like, what were you told?

Cassie:
One of the things I remember is like, you don’t have to go back. You can stay here. You know, nanny can help take care of you need my mom’s grandma, my mom’s mom. And she can take care of you while, you know, I’m. And this is my mom saying that it’s just like, you know, she, no, she didn’t. And so she was in the transition of moving down here and my boyfriend’s mom at the time, you know, she was behind all of this too. It was three women.

Matthew Brickman:
When I lost that battle, we had three women against one man.

Cassie:
Yeah. And I learned a lot about, honestly, my ex my boyfriend at the time about him, which I’ll get back. Cause that does feed into the whole thing when you and I got our relationship working back. And

Matthew Brickman:
So that Monday you go to school, you know, your, your grandmother takes you to school. And then I text and say, you’re coming home. And you’re like, uh, you’re not the boss of me. I can come in. Now we talked to the police and you can’t make me come home. What was going through your head?

Cassie:
I really, I really don’t know anything.

Matthew Brickman:
Yeah. So, so on my side, I’ll just, I’ll just tell like, like what happened on my, on my side, my point of view, and then maybe that’ll trigger some memories or whatnot. So I remember on, on Monday, I’m like, you, you, you gotta come home and you were like, I’m not coming home. And Oh my gosh, I felt so betrayed. I was so hurt. I was angry, but I was more sad. Um, it was like, you know, after all the sacrifice, you know, and I, and I had filed 43 contempt of court on your mother. She wasn’t paying her child support. She had me $33,000 in unpaid child support, you know, um, we were constantly fighting for years. And then it’s like, you went over to the enemy, like what I was, I just felt so betrayed. And so, um, and so I remember I told her, I said, look, you know, if you’re not coming home, I’m going to sell your car.

Matthew Brickman:
And I remember you, I remember he shot back. I said, no, you’re not. Well for those of you that don’t know me personally. I don’t say things that I don’t do. Like if I say something I’ve already thought it through, I’ve already processed. I’ve weighed the pros and cons. If it comes out of my mouth, you better know it’s going to be done. And so you said, no, you’re not. I got in your car. I drove it to CarMax. And I sold it that night. I do not lie. And I remember the next day and, and Matthew was shocked. He was like, Oh my gosh. And so your brother who’s, you know, um, uh, you know, he was still at home at the time. He sitting there watching all of it from my side and watching. And so, you know, w when he turned 18 and he wanted to go live with your mother, same thing, he did it differently.

Matthew Brickman:
It still felt like a betrayal, but he did it different. He did it with respect. Um, and so we did transition that. We’ll talk about that in a little bit. Um, but I remember I, I took your car, sold it, and the next day he told you at school and you were few me. Why do you didn’t think that I was going to do it? Plus I sold your car. Um, and so then the next day, so then that day I’m texting, like, you know, um, you need to come home now. Meanwhile, I got ahold of my attorney. We filed what they call an emergency pickup order. So we filed with the court for the judge to sign an order saying that, yes, you are a minor child still here. We’re still subject to a parenting plan. Therefore you must abide by the parenting plan.

Matthew Brickman:
So we filed this with the court on Tuesday. Usually this thing gets the, gets, looked at and signed that day. But Tuesday goes by, didn’t hear anything from the court. And so I turned off your cell phone. I’m like, well, look, if you’re not coming home, and if you’re going to be like this, I’m not still paying for the luxuries of your life. So I turned off yourself and I remember you were so pissed because you know, an 18 year old that all of a sudden doesn’t have a car, doesn’t have a cell phone. You might as well, Jessica gala, like I’m off with this guy, like, Oh my gosh, how am I going to communicate and get around and whatnot. And unfortunately though, I’m cutting off my own communication with you. So then I remember Wednesday comes around, I called my attorney and she’s like, I have no idea.

Matthew Brickman:
I don’t know why the judge hasn’t signed it. But, um, and so I was like, Cassa, you need to come in. And you’re like, and now, now, now I’m having to email you. Well, I remember that, uh, you, uh, said no. And so I remotely locked you out of your computer. I like then fine. I mean, I got, I bought you your Mac, I set it up. I can lock you out. So I locked you out while I’m also cutting off my modes of communication with you as well. And so the next day now we’re on Thursday, still. Haven’t heard from the judge. So the attorney gets a hold of the judge’s assistant and finds out that it was filed incorrectly and the judge never saw it. And I’m like, you got to be kidding me. So the only mode of communication I have with you now is, um, through your iPad that I bought yet, and I can’t lock you out of that.

Matthew Brickman:
So you had that. So I get the order back from the judge and it’s denied. And I’m like, uh, no, I have a parenting plan that says otherwise. And it was interesting what he said. Um, and, and at the time I was feeling, but looking back many, many years and, and, and reverse and dealing with this on a daily basis as a mediator, I do understand why he did it. And so he said, look, I’m not going to create two places where your daughter does not want to be because, you know, if you were already pissed off and didn’t want to be with me, and then the judge forced your mother to store your grandmother, to send you back to a place you don’t want to be, then you’re going to, as, as a teenager, you’re going to be pissed off because they made you come back and then you create two places.

Matthew Brickman:
The only two homes that a teenager has where they’re upset and not feeling safe and secure. And then they usually run away. They end up on the streets. So I understand why the judge did it, even though I didn’t like what he did, but I do understand it. And even though children have an opinion, they don’t have a say. And even if like I wanted, you know, a lot of times the mediation people are like, Oh, well then you know what? I’m going to have my child come in and testify. No, they’re not children. Don’t get to come in and testify. It’s rare that they get to come in and testify where they want to live. Because again, they have an opinion, not a se, but the judge, you know, was like, look, I’m not going to force her. And he did say, look, yes, she’s still in high school, but she is 18 and I’m not going to force it.

Matthew Brickman:
Well, at that point, I just threw up my hands in the air. I was upset. I was sad. And so that was when I told her Cassie, come get your stuff. So we lived in Abaco at the time I had a condo and Cassie had the master bedroom. She had the big master bedroom with the on suite, with the walking closet. I mean, she was living a life of luxury, you know, flash screen TV, and all the, all the luxuries. And so, um, and I, and I had a small room. And so I was like, all right, fine, I’ll move it into the big room. And so we went in and bagged up all of your stuff. We put everything in garbage bags, you know, we didn’t, we didn’t throw anything out. I mean, we even backed up all of your, like you collected shopping mall bags, like you were like a bag lady.

Matthew Brickman:
Like you were like, you had the Apple bag and the Vera Bradley bag and all like in the, and you know, the big Brown bag, the small Brown bag for bloom. He’s like, you banned, we still boxed up or bagged up your, your, your bags. Um, but we bagged everything out. And I said, you know what, come back on Sunday, come over Sunday and get your stuff, but bring your cell phone. Cause I turned it off, but I still owed money on hers, on my account. And I said, bring your, uh, car insurance check. Cause you had one more car insurance check and come get your stuff. And so then, um, over the next couple of days, we backed that up on Friday. So then Friday and Saturday, then, uh, we started to move into your room, repaint the room, um, you know, get, get rid of the furniture and stuff.

Matthew Brickman:
It was so hard. Cause I mean, it was almost like a death, right? It felt like a death of like, okay, we’re just erasing everything that has been here for years. And so then Sunday, you came over, um, we were still in the middle of painting and doing their stuff. And I remember you came over and I could even talk to you. I could see, I sat in the, in the bathroom right by the front door, just sobbing. And I had Mary. So the door to get your you’re checking yourself up, but you were very, very insistent on talking to me. You just would not back down. And I was, I just couldn’t. I was just in tears. And you were like, where’s my dad. I want to talk to my dad. Where’s my dad. I don’t talk to my dad. And Mary was very Mary. Mary is my wife. For those of you that don’t have. And she was like, Cassie, I just need yourself out of your check. And you were like, where’s my dad. I want to talk to my dad. And we found out later why you were doing that, what you were up to, but why don’t you tell everybody about that day and how you felt when you came to get your stuff from the home that you grew up?

Cassie:
Yeah. Well, as you were saying that I was remembering that day and it’s so much now because, um, my mom and my grandmother and I called the police, um, and we had two officers there because we didn’t know. Well, I w I was walking into like that day. I remember that day as I see it, sorry guys. But I see that day still in my head. And, um, because I didn’t know, cause there was anger with you and there was anger with me that was, that was there. And so I didn’t know what I was walking in.

Matthew Brickman:
Say more hurt than anger. I mean, at that point, I mean, look, we had gone from Sunday to Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday to Thursday to Friday to Saturday. And now we were back on a Sunday and we had already gone through selling a car, turning off a phone, turning off a computer, you know, being rejected by the court. We had gone through that stuff. Um, and so, I mean my on, on my end it was more hurt than anger. Um,

Cassie:
Yeah. So on my end it was more anger than, um, at the same time as her. Cause I was a teenager in my world.

Matthew Brickman:
And what were you angry about?

Cassie:
I think it was more angry about, um, kind of like everything that kind of, how everything went down in that

Matthew Brickman:
Well you were in, so what were you angry at yourself?

Cassie:
I think I was angry at myself. I was a bit angry at EO. Um,

Matthew Brickman:
You were probably angry that I turned that car turned off your phone basically took away all of your communication. You know, the computer that you were doing, your homework on. I mean, you know,

Cassie:
Yeah. It’s, I think that’s where a lot of the anger, because you took out and you pretty much destroyed a teenager of world views, you know, you took every way. Cause again, I was a junior about to be a senior in high school. This is in March,

Matthew Brickman:
But I took it because of what you do. I mean like I would have never just taken it. I mean, it was, it was, you did therefore, because I’ll tell you from, from, from a parent’s point of view and I deal with this a lot is, you know, if you’re not going to live in my house, you’re not going to live with the luxuries that I provide. Um, and it is a fine line because usually those luxuries, you know, go back to what we were talking about. Like with the dangling, the proverbial care, usually the luxuries are there to try to entice a child to a particular viewpoint to particular, you know, like you want to be over at my house opposed to going over there, you know, or people use it like, well, you know, I bought the cell phone for you. Therefore you need to, or like a lot of parents these days, I didn’t that much back then.

Matthew Brickman:
Cause we just didn’t. But a lot of parents buy it because they want to be able to track the child is what they say. They’re not really trying to track the child. They want tabs on their packs, which is just raw. But they use the child as a pawn or a tracking beacon. I deal with that a lot in mediation. Um, but yeah, so, so you know, when, when you came upstairs and you’re walking down this long hallway, we looked at the name of the hallway and the penthouse and you see all these bags outside, like, like did you think that you were coming into the house and then pack up your stuff? Like what, what was going through your head? Like what did you think you were walking because you, you obviously brought the cops and I was told a story that I’ll tell about why I think either you told me or our neighbor told us because our neighbor was downstairs watching and listening to this. And so they gave us information, but didn’t tell me about, you know, what was, what was going through your head as you’re walking down the hallway? Like when you approached that situation, what did you think you’re walking into?

Cassie:
I thought I was walking into of you and I talking. Um, and just even though I started it, but it was the other voices around that, you know, enabling all that and just talking things out,

Matthew Brickman:
She thought we’d just be able to sit down and to have a conversation and work it out,

Cassie:
Work it out. I wasn’t really know. I wasn’t, I wasn’t expecting, I wasn’t expecting of coming down the hallway and the majority of, of our side of our hall.

Matthew Brickman:
Oh yeah. I mean it was, I mean it had to be at least 25 30 bodies, please

Cassie:
Seeing all my stuff in garbage bags, not boxes, but

Matthew Brickman:
We didn’t have boxes. We had to,

Cassie:
For me, it’s always like in my mind is like, and end. I was like, wow, disrespectful and not putting myself in boxes, putting everything in bags that was going in my mind, I was hurt. There was another girl. I was like, Oh, okay, everything got put in a garbage bag. And I wanted to talk to you just to talk things out.

Matthew Brickman:
So you thought we’d just be able to work it out, work it out.

Cassie:
Yeah. And you know, when we have more conversation, there was a lot of more of, I just wanted to talk to you. I wanted to talk things out. And of course we had to go through a journey to get to that point, you know? So,

Matthew Brickman:
So then, and, and you know, you know, what’s interesting as I’m thinking this, so after, and I’ll back up, I don’t know if you remember this or not. Cause it’s interesting. I was just thinking about this when you, when you mentioned that, so after your mom and I had gotten divorced and then, you know, I think it was maybe six months later, eight months later or something we thought, Hey, maybe we made a mistake, let’s get back together. And so I moved her into the condo and six months later, same stuff, different day, like all the, and it was like, get out. It was much easier to like get out because we weren’t married. She didn’t live there. She wasn’t on the lease. She wasn’t a renter. I was like, get out. And when and when, uh, and so, you know, got rid of her, she comes back with her mom and her cousins to get all of her stuff.

Matthew Brickman:
And all her stuff was in garbage bags. Like that was just a method of getting set up because, you know, look when you’ve got a whole bunch of stuff and you’re just like grabbing clothes, grabbing shoes, grabbing stuff, you’re just dumping stuff into garbage bags. It’s so much easier to get rid of it than have to go somewhere and try to find boxes. Like it’s not like a normal move. Like it’s like right now, get yourself. And what does every household had plenty of bags. Um, and you know, and so I guess that was just the method. It was just easy to just be like, let’s just put everything and here, like you just take all the clothes, everything just dump everything in garbage bags and it’s easier to just, you know, carry it and whatnot. Then having awful check boxes and stuff, you know, you could pile up garbage bags so much easier in a vehicle than you can stack boxes. And so, um, anyway, so, so then, um, then we went through our year of hell, thanks for joining us on this episode and stay tuned because you will not want to miss the conclusion of my discussion with Cassie.

Matthew Brickman:
Occasionally Sydney, and I will be releasing Q&A bonus episodes where we will answer your questions and give you a personal shout out.

Sydney Mitchell:
If you have a comment or question regarding anything that we discuss, email us at info@ichatmediation.com that’s info@ichatmediation.com and stay tuned to hear your shout out and have your question answered here on the show.