Conversation With Rebecca Palmer Esq. The Latest Marriage & Divorce Statistics Will Shock You

Sydney Mitchell:

Hi. My name is Sydney Mitchell.

Matthew Brickman:

Hi, I’m Matthew Brickman, Florida Supreme court mediator. Welcome to the Mediate This! Podcast where we discuss everything mediation and conflict resolution.

 

Matthew Brickman (00:06):
Do you know the latest statistics?

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (00:15):
No.

Matthew Brickman (00:16):
Okay. So

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (00:18):
Statistics.

Matthew Brickman (00:18):
Yeah, I was, I’m, I’m, I’m a statistic guy. So, in, so what county are you in?

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (00:26):
Orange County. Orange County, Florida. My office is right downtown.

Matthew Brickman (00:30):
Okay. Alright. So you’re in Orange County? I’m, um, I’m just north. I, I’ve been in Palm Beach County forever and ever. I’m now in Martin County, but I still do most of my mediations with Palm Beach and Broward. And

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (00:40):
That’s a different world there, by the way.

Matthew Brickman (00:43):
It’s, and, and for

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (00:45):
I clerked at Gunster.

Matthew Brickman (00:46):
Oh, okay.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (00:48):
Yeah. Yeah. And, and I three offices, west Palm, Fort Lauderdale, and Stewart.

Matthew Brickman (00:53):
Okay. And all right. And, and I’m in Palm City, which is like Stewart West

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (00:58):
<laugh>. Right, right, right, right.

Matthew Brickman (00:59):
Yeah. So, so nationally divorce rates, you know, 50%. Right. Palm Beach County, 55% of first time divorces. Now this is interesting. So two years ago, um, I, um, so every, it’s been, what, 17 years I’ve been practicing, um, I’ve missed three of the, um, family law conferences in Orlando. They have every year.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (01:28):
Yep. I just

Matthew Brickman (01:29):
Wanted, I just wanted, yeah, I would do it.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (01:31):
Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (01:32):
Yeah. <laugh>. So, so what what was interesting was they, they had given the statistic on paternity, um, which is, which, which actually, sadly, and I think this will lead into what you’re talking about, about, you know, this generation bucking the system was, I, I didn’t go for the past two years. Um, but the statistic has gone up 2% in two years, which is pretty bad that, that as of right now in the United States, 42% of the children being born or born out of wedlock, 42, it’s never been that high. It was two years ago. It was 40%, and we were astonished that it was 40. It’s now 42%. So if you take the 42% that are born right into parenting plans, split homes, and then you take, okay, the rest of ’em are marriages, but half of ’em end in divorce. You’re in the 70 percentile of children in split homes.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (02:35):
Well, that, that may explain some of the trends, you know, um,

Matthew Brickman (02:39):
Okay, so what,

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (02:40):
Yeah. So one of the trends is people not getting married. Yeah. And just living together. And, um, what I, that’s fine. You know, I, I, I did that

Matthew Brickman (02:51):
Once <laugh> Yeah. I mean,

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (02:53):
You know,

Matthew Brickman (02:54):
It’s fine, but it’s got its downside. Bingo.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (02:57):
So, and, and one thing I wanted any listeners that have decided to have a domestic partner, chip, and, um, I, I

Matthew Brickman (03:05):
Want define that, define that for people. Define like domestic partnership

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (03:09):
Together. You love each other. It’s complete relationship. You’re not married, you know, so it it, what I wanna say to folks doing that is be smart. Think about a few things. Think about your intent. Um, and what I mean by that is if you’re married and one of you die, the other person’s going to receive everything lightly. If you have a domestic partnership relationship and one of you dies, maybe your intent is for them to have everything. That’s not probably what’s gonna happen unless you take some additional legal steps. What are those? Um, certainly a will, but probate Yep. Is tough. One of the e couple easier things you can do is literally put each other on each other’s bank accounts, even if you don’t, you know, ever look at each other’s bank accounts or anything.

Matthew Brickman (04:02):
So something that simple. Really

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (04:04):
That simple.

Matthew Brickman (04:06):
Wow, I did not know that.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (04:09):
Because if one dies, it’s still the other person. Bank account,

Matthew Brickman (04:12):
<laugh>. Well, that’s, yeah. It’s a joint bank account.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (04:14):
You don’t have to go probate. You have to do all that. So if you’re intent is to leave something to your domestic partner, take some of those additional steps. Right. Um, if that’s your intent, I’m not saying you have to Sure. But if you, you know, your intent is for that person to have your bank account. If you die, um, just do it. You know, life is short. You never know. So, uh, so I would say additional legal steps should be taken. Yeah. Uh, if that is the decision that’s made.

Matthew Brickman (04:47):
So I’ve seen as, all right. So, so I’ll give you, I’ll give you some interesting, a li a little interesting history. And, and I don’t even know if I’ve gone this deep into my, I mean, like, my personal life is basically an open book. I’ve written a book about me. Um, I’ve got the podcast I do like, but this is interesting. Now we’re talking about domestic partnerships. Okay. So, as we said, I’m a Gen Xer. Okay. Um, I met my current wife, um, in 2007. Okay. We had a marriage, I, you know, I, I proposed to her and we had a marriage ceremony in 2011. Okay.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (05:32):
Jake,

Matthew Brickman (05:33):
We did not file or sign a marriage certificate.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (05:38):
Oh, don’t do that.

Matthew Brickman (05:40):
Because, well, because, and, and a lot of it had to do with, like I said, I had been previously married. And my biggest thing, Rebecca, was I loved her, but I didn’t want to own anything with anybody. Okay. And she had kids from a previous marriage. I had kids from a previous marriage. And so we weren’t having kids. Okay. So we didn’t have to worry about that. But I was like, I don’t wanna own anything. So, so, but you know what? But you know, for my parents, cuz remember he’s a pastor. And for my grandmother and family and for our, our church and our past, fine. We’re gonna have our ceremony in front of God and witnesses. Okay, great. So we had our ceremony in 2011. My wife ca now, now from a woman’s point of view, my wife, and, and she was a great sport in hindsight, I should never have done that to her.

Matthew Brickman (06:37):
But she was a good sport all things considered. But from 2011 until 2018, there were those times where she’s like, I mean, we’re not really married. Like, are you gonna commit? Like, we’re not. And I’m like, no, no, no, we’re married, baby. Look at the pictures. <laugh>, she was a good sport, but she was a good sport. But in 2018, only because it started to become a little bit more like we heard more about it, we actually went to the courthouse and filed for domestic partnership. I’m still not marrying her. So we asked. You did. I did. So, so we met in oh seven, had a marriage ceremony in 2011, another seven years. I’m still not marrying her another seven years. And I’m like, okay, it’s, I, I’m getting there, baby. I’m almost there. We filed for a domestic partnership. Now. Now why did we do it?

Matthew Brickman (07:44):
Because I’m, because I’m selfish because I wanted to be put on her company’s medical insurance. Ah, well guess what? Her particular company didn’t recognize domestic partnership, so it didn’t work. So the next year, 2019, I said, fine, <laugh>. So we filed our, we signed a marriage certificate, filed officially married best decision. I’m like, why in the world did I not do this sooner? Because surprisingly enough, it is not, people say, oh, it’s just, I look, I said it for years. Oh, it’s just a piece of paper. What do you need a piece of paper for? No, you know what? There really is so much more to it. There’s a commitment. It is mental, spiritual, emotional. It is physical, it’s everything. And it’s not just a piece of paper. If it was just a piece of paper, like whatever. And so, oh my gosh, it accelerated our relationship and there’s like, oh my gosh, it, it really did change. But, but talking about domestic partnerships, like, like we were on each other’s bank account, fine. But like, I refuse to buy property with her. I refu like, I’m like, no, I have my company. It’s premarital. No, I wrote my book. It’s premarital. No, I have my car. It’s premarital. No, this is your debt. That’s not mine. Like, right. Like, and and, and looking back,

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (09:09):
It’s really

Matthew Brickman (09:10):
Interesting. She was, she was a good sport because I, I don’t think most people would’ve put up with me, honestly. I mean, I mean like, you know, and in hindsight I wouldn’t have put up with myself. Um, but she was a good sport. And now, and, and it, and we did that in 2019 and you know, we bought a house last year together. We’re both on the house. We’ve got everything together. We’re all knowing everything. And it’s amazing. But I actually went through the whole, well we’ll do this. I mean, and not just the bank account. Okay? We’re living together. We had the guys that we’re married cuz we had our ceremony and we’ve filed for domestic partnership.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (09:51):
Really interesting.

Matthew Brickman (09:51):
And I’m not this new millennial generation again, I’m a gen Xer. But, but here, here’s what I wouldn’t do. There was no way that I was ever gonna do a prenup.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (10:05):
That’s

Matthew Brickman (10:06):
Interesting. But I’ll do a domestic partnership <laugh>, I, I, I don’t understand. Sometimes I don’t understand my own logic. Rebecca,

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (10:12):
You’re an interesting guy, man.

Matthew Brickman (10:14):
Yeah. But, but so, so, so let me ask you this. With these gin wires, you know, in this millennial that they’re sort of, you know, they’re, they’re going, no, I don’t think I really want to get married, but they are living together. Maybe, maybe they, maybe they’re like me. Maybe they do file for a domestic partnership or they do the bank. Um, what kind of challenges do you see as an attorney? Because I see challenges as a mediator when basically, because then like if they’re having kids, we’re having to do paternity, but what if they bought a house together? Right. Or what if they do have joint bank accounts and then things don’t work out and you know, like then what do you see? Or, or, or medical issues. Like one of them gets sick and they’re like, I I want medical decision. Uh, no, you’re not on that. You know, with the, like remember with Terry Shiva, like we have an exact, like if you don’t have a living will, there’s an exact order. And if you are not married in a spouse, you’ve got other people that get to make metal medical decisions. Are you seeing any of that as an attorney?

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (11:17):
Well man, you just said a lot of good points there. I know.

Matthew Brickman (11:20):
<laugh>

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (11:21):
Well that’s another, I’m, I’m glad you talked about what if somebody gets sick. Cause that’s also huge. Yeah. I mean, so get a living will. If, if, if that’s your intent.

Matthew Brickman (11:32):
Well, especially recently, since Covid, people are dropping like flies Yeah. With it without vaccines. And we’re, and you know, if we’re talking millennials, we’re talking 29 to 43. You look at the recent statistics, these are the people that are dropping and if they’re living together and they’re not married and they’re on life support or they die, like now what?

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (11:54):
Well, these are exactly the things when I said think <laugh>, if you’re gonna do that and do domestic partnership, think of all the other ramifications. Yeah. Uh, if you have ever been in a situation where you had to make the medical decisions or you’ve been in a situation where you wanted to Yeah, it could. Those are two very difficult places. And you wanna make sure those decisions are made way ahead of time. Yeah. Um, you know, my, when, when my father was, you know, aging, he, he, he lived in 91. Amazing man, tell you sometime he got case to the Supreme Court. He was the first case to the United States Supreme Court about, uh, separation of church and state time magazine, whole nine yards. Really interesting me up. But, um, he, he, these are things you gotta think about. And when he got sick, thank God, you know, I had been put in charge of his medical care.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (12:52):
Okay. Because there really, you know, my mom was in no position, unfortunately to make decisions. And it would’ve been her. Yeah. <laugh>, you know, my dad was smart. I mean, he, he did a lot of things and taught me a lot of things. And, and, and you know, having done that was a world of, of of wonderful to be able to help him. And if anybody, and bless you, if you’ve ever been through loved ones who have been sick, um, it’s such a hard thing. Yeah. And, but you don’t wanna be in a position where you have no authority. You in the medical world, you have to have an advocate, somebody you totally trust Yeah. To make a really, really tough decisions. So that’s an example in a domestic partnership, um, to think about a living will. And I, you know, I think it, I get bucking the system and not doing the traditional things, but think <laugh>.

Matthew Brickman (13:51):
What about, what are you seeing with like, with, with like property? Because you know, you know, two people then, you know, they’re like, Hey, we’re gonna buy property together and then we’re gonna have kids together, but we’re not getting married. And then what about when it doesn’t work out? Then what?

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (14:07):
Well, I’m not a real estate lawyer, but my understanding is that, you know, you can buy property together. It’s gonna become property. I believe

Matthew Brickman (14:14):
Joint tenants in common.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (14:17):
It’s a common, that’s right. That’s right. Oh God. Take me back to law school. I

Matthew Brickman (14:20):
<laugh> I deal with this, I deal with this a lot in mediation.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (14:24):
It’s interesting.

Matthew Brickman (14:26):
It’s interesting. Yeah. I deal with this. For example, I had one, I had a mediation, uh, Thursday, no, Wednesday or Thursday. Um, and they had to go, being that they never got married, they could not, like, like if you’re married, you go see a family attorney who can deal with equitable distribution, parenting, time sharing, child support, alimony, all of it. Right. But being that they were not married, they could, they did not have the luxury of going to a family court to do everything. So they had to go to a civil court to deal with the home. I, and they had to go to a family court to deal with the children. There also were not protections under the law of marriage when it came to how the home was going to be done. Uh, because like, you know, if you’re married, it’s data marriage, data filing, it’s marital, it’s a marital piece of property, 50%. But in civil, it was like, okay, well who put the down payment? Do you get to recoup the down payment? Right. Well, it wasn’t marital money. So did you pay 50 50 or did you pay 70 30? Are you looking for credits and offsets? Like what, what looks like a great idea? Oh, we’re bucking the system. Really?

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (15:46):
Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (15:46):
You’re losing protections. I, even though I did not drink my own medicine for a long time, I always told people, regardless if you believe in the institution, if you look at marriage as an institution, if you don’t believe in the institution, there’s protections in the institution. And more for women than men. Because, because because, like alimony? Nope. Like generally it, you know, if, if, if you live together and you play house and you don’t get married when it’s over, it’s generally equal time sharing with the child. It’s shared parental responsibility. You have child support and then he who makes the money gets the toys. Okay. And, and there’s no, and, and if, and if somebody sacrificed a career to stay home and take care of the child, you don’t get a payday for that. You’re not getting anything back. There’s no alimony. You lost out.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (16:48):
Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (16:48):
This generation’s not paying attention to that. They’re thinking, oh, it’s a, this is a great way to sidestep the norm. But like you said, it should be harder to get married. But people need to pay attention to like, what does it look like if it doesn’t work out? Which, is that what you’re doing? I’m gonna circle back to what you said before. When you’re doing weddings and, and you talk to people, do you sort of do that with them? Sort of like preventative maintenance? Like, okay. Oh,

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (17:16):
Absolutely.

Matthew Brickman (17:17):
Ok.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (17:18):
Absolutely. And by the way, I, I dunno why this word has never hit me as hard as it has today, but it’s funny that we call it an institution <laugh>.

Matthew Brickman (17:27):
Yeah.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (17:28):
I never really thought about that before. Cause you just say, you know, the institution,

Matthew Brickman (17:32):
But, but I hear that from this generation. Oh, I don’t, I I don’t believe in the institution of marriage is what the, that’s what they refer to it as.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (17:40):
It’s like, sounds,

Matthew Brickman (17:41):
Sounds like that’s so nonromantic, <laugh> rights

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (17:48):
Word has so many different meanings. Like, you know, mental institution, you know? Yeah. I’m just thinking about all these things and, and, uh, I love marriage, you know?

Matthew Brickman (17:59):
Yeah. I love my marriage. Yeah.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (18:01):
Like I said, I, I didn’t start until 30, um, about four days after I was 30 <laugh>. And uh, I told, I told him when we met, I said, I’m not getting married on 30. So we got married September 4th. That’s awesome. My birthday’s in August. So, um, you know, it’s, it, it it is really special, you know, and Yes. Sometimes it doesn’t work out. Yeah. Um, my, my brother’s ex-wife, um, when my brother died, she spoke at his funeral. I mean, they loved each other until the day he died. Yeah. You know, and, and they were married. <laugh>. Yeah. You know, they had two amazing children as a result. And um, I guess you can have children without marriage. Of course we talked about that. But, uh, they had a wonderful 10 years together. And at his funeral she said something so funny. I was like, yeah, that’s true. She just like, I just couldn’t handle him. I couldn’t keep up with him. You know, he unfortunately left her, but, uh, he left his wife at the 10th anniversary. I think he had a 10 limit on marriage to your limit.

Matthew Brickman (19:11):
They call that the 10-year edge.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (19:12):
Oh. They call it seven Yearish. But he, he, he, he held out to

Matthew Brickman (19:16):
10, I thought it was 10.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (19:17):
I thought it was seven year. Huh. Fact us on that one.

Matthew Brickman (19:22):
Yeah.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (19:23):
Seven year

Matthew Brickman (19:25):
Seven actually, you know what? Seven And the more you say it, I’m going, yeah. Maybe I’m just make it up 10 because I’m a Gen Xer and I’m a 10, but <laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. But I, you know what? I think you’re right. Yes. Seven, seven year-ish. That does sound more

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (19:40):
Familiar. My brother had a1, so, uh, divorces first and second wife very fast suddenly in my perspective. Yeah. It wasn’t like he complained or, you know, it was just

Matthew Brickman (19:55):
<laugh>. It was a light switch.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (19:56):
It was like a light switch. Wow. And uh, it was just, you know, and you know, I’d be curious to take his brain about him, all of that. Okay. Something he did teach me though, he and his first wife taught me when we were talking about banks. This is what my husband and I do and maybe for an anniversary at some point, like, you filed the papers, maybe I’ll change it. But my brother did it this way and I’ve done it this way. Another healthy way to handle something like that in our marriage has been um, I have my bank account. He has his bank account. Should I pass? I signed paperwork, it goes to him, but he’s not on my bank account. Yeah, that’s right. Same with him. So he’s really into guitars for example. You know, I don’t, he wants to go buy a fancy fender, go for it. <laugh>, you know, I don’t need to know about if I wanna go get a mani penny, go for it. Yeah. You know, whatever it may be. And then we have a joint account that we pay for all our joint assets with and you know, mortgage, things like that stuff for the kids. And so that there’s, there’s a lot of creative ways for those who are the system on, on designing things that work that aren’t what we grew up with traditionally. Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (21:14):
Where’s one bank account, husband and wife are on the account. All the money goes in there.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (21:19):
That’s what everything. Yeah. You know, that was, I mean maybe most still I do, I don’t know,

Matthew Brickman (21:25):
Ideal as a mediator, I hear exactly how you had structured it. That is most common to me is his account, her account. And then there’s a j and there’s usually one joint account for marital bills, but his account, her account, and then one joint account. I deal with that. So, so often that is the way, I mean like, I mean

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (21:48):
That’s what, that’s what we

Matthew Brickman (21:48):
Do. Honestly, Rebecca, I can’t tell you the last time. I have not not seen that. Like that’s a very common practice is his, that’s

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (21:57):
Interesting.

Matthew Brickman (21:57):
I didn’t realize in hours his, her, his hers and our, I mean I had one the other day where hours she, you know, he was, you know, the, the accusation of marital dissipation and waste, you know, he was taking the money and so she went in, pulled out the money from the joint account, closed out or, or or you know, basically stopped using it, took the money, put it into her personal account. Now they’re getting divorced, you know, and um, and she had done that after filing, but, and so of course the accusation was, well you took marital funds, he’s entitled to half of ’em. But then she said, well look, he was wasting money that was for our bills and expenses. So I pulled it out of our joint, put it in my personal, I still paid bills and expenses with it and then showed us the bank account so we can see, okay, yes, there’s fp n l, there’s and so no, you’re not getting a credit cuz she didn’t take it to go do her thing. Just like you said, like a Manny Petty or a Fender guitar. No, she still paid marital. And it’s like, well then you’re not getting a credit. But there was still this, his hers and hours going on and still like, you know, if you’re married, it’s all still marital. If it’s money made during the marriage, it doesn’t matter.

Matthew Brickman (23:10):
But, but for what you and I are talking about with like, you know, viable alternatives to the traditional marriage, how maybe do you structure those? That’s even what people are doing that are married, they’re going his, hers and ours.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (23:23):
Yeah. And it absolutely. And it’s what’s your comfort zone? Yeah. And um, you know, it’s kind of like, there’s so many things I guess to a certain extent. I, I bucked the system so to speak. Um, I didn’t take my husband’s name. Okay. Uh, so he’s Canella.

Matthew Brickman (23:40):
Okay.

Rebecca Palmer Esq. (23:41):
And for me, Rebecca Canella Banana and I, I just, and he, he was really cool about it. Really cool about it. I was like, I just, just because I’m getting married doesn’t mean I’m not gonna be able to find (inaudible).

 

Matthew Brickman:
Occasionally Sydney and I will be releasing Q & A bonus episodes where we will answer questions and give you a personal shout out.

Sydney Mitchell:
If you have a comment or question regarding anything that we discuss, email us at info@ichatmediation.com that’s info@ichatmediation.com and stay tuned to hear your shout out and have your question answered here on the show.

Matthew Brickman:

For more information about my services or to schedule your mediation with me, either in person or using my iChatMediation Virtual Platform built by Cisco Communications. Visit me online at www.iMediateInc.com. Call me at 561-262-9121, Toll-Free at 877-822-1479 or email me at MBrickman@iChatMediation.com.