Conversation With Rebecca Palmer Esq. On Why Its Easy To Get Married, Hard To Get Divorced

Sydney Mitchell:

Hi. My name is Sydney Mitchell.

Matthew Brickman:

Hi, I’m Matthew Brickman, Florida Supreme court mediator. Welcome to the Mediate This! Podcast where we discuss everything mediation and conflict resolution.

 

Rebecca Palmer (00:26):
Absolutely. So, again, Rebecca Palmer, thank you for very much for having me on the podcast. I appreciate it about me. I’m from Lincoln, Nebraska, kinda random fact Midwest. I absolutely loved it there, really solid, great people in touch with many of them. None of my family’s still there, but I grew up there for 18 years. I moved to Florida, I went to Stetson Law, and Stetson undergrad began practicing over 25 years ago. I initially started in like corporate and insurance and I just wasn’t feeling it. I really wanted something more individualized. I had, you know, did public defender when I was in law school, knew I didn’t wanna do that. So, but I wanted to do litigation. Then I wanted to work with individuals and I started doing some family law and just, it became my passion. I just, it’s exactly what I wanna do.

Rebecca Palmer (01:17):
I love, love, love doing family law. I feel like I meet people a really, really rough times in their life and I get to kinda walk the walk with them. Right, right. And then I see really neat things later. Yeah. You know, I have several great stories about that. One quick one is, um, one of my clients, a year after her divorce, uh, she and her, her daughter, my daughter were friends and I said, let’s go out to lunch. You know, see how you’re doing. We go out to lunch like a lightning bolt. I thought, I go, wait a minute. I’ve got a friend you need to date. And she’s like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Matthew Brickman (01:50):
<laugh>

Rebecca Palmer (01:52):
Date. No, I do, I do. He’s wonderful. You gotta date him going one date, you know, see what happens. So fast forward three years later, I did their wedding in US <laugh>. So I really get to walk the walk with people. Um, I was a, a large law firm for nearly 20 years. It was about 18 years exactly. And, um, before I joined that firm, I wanted to hang my shingle. Um, but a couple of my dear friends worked at the big firm. They don’t work through any longer either, but I, I just like, I gotta go, I gotta check this out. I love these guys and had a wonderful 18 years. And really cool thing is, cause it was such a big firm, um, I really got to have the backup of that to learn how to basically run a firm. Right. By that, I mean, they didn’t do family law in a deep way, and they ran in teams, they had different teams.

Rebecca Palmer (02:48):
And I said, I can I do a family law team? I wanna, and they had no moms or women moms that were team leaders. And, uh, when I was on maternity leave, <laugh> have my daughter who’s now 19, they called me and said, Hey, you know what? You’re already doing some family law. You love it. We’ll give you a team. So I was able to build it. I had, uh, two to three associates, other attorneys, paralegal, legal assistant, and uh, that was my team. It was like a little firm inside of firm and That’s great. So I, I was about to turn 50 and I was like, if I don’t ever follow my dream, I’m having my own firm, I’ll never do it. Yeah. So I started my own firm and designed it same way. And, uh, I mean, obviously when I say same way, same amount of people, very different philosophies and run differently. But, um, it’s just, it’s awesome. Uh, I, I used to wanna retire early now I can’t even imagine retiring <laugh>. Yeah. I love it.

Matthew Brickman (03:47):
Yeah. I’ve always, you know, I’ve always said for me as a family mediator, and I’ve been doing it for 17 years, it’s interesting because a lot of family mediators are either retired attorneys, retired judges, retired social workers, retired therapists. And so I’m like, I have a 17 year jump on retirement. Um, and I’m like, I’m like, I’m already there. And people are like, well Matthew, what are you gonna do when you retire? I’m like, I’m doing it. Like that’s what people in my industry do when they retire, they become mediators. And you know, for me, my idea like, you know, if someone says, Matthew, what is retirement? To me? It’s not that you quit work, you’re on the golf course, you’re collecting social security. Like no, like I can’t imagine for me is I will continue to do what I do because I want to, not because I have to.

Rebecca Palmer (04:32):
Absolutely.

Matthew Brickman (04:34):
I still do it. Like I have a passion for it and I hear the passion for it, you know, with you. It’s interesting because I’ve, you know, working with so many family attorneys through the years, um, it’s interesting cuz a lot of ’em, you know, go to law school, get out and go to the public defender’s office. They’re working for the state and it’s a good place to cut the, you know, cut your teeth. Right. Then a number of ’em, it, it usually goes one of two ways. They’re like you, where they’re like, you know what? I’m gonna get in with a big firm and you cut your teeth with a big firm, or they go right in to open up their own practice and then they struggle or they leave that they go to a big firm, then they go back and open up a practice.

Matthew Brickman (05:12):
Cuz there’s something about that structure that if you’re not self structured, it is a good place to go. And I’ve got a friend that that, uh, or attorney I work with that’s a friend and he did the same thing. You, he was with an attorney with a firm, they had no family section and he’s like, I really want to do family law. And so they’re like, okay, that’s interesting. And they did the same type of a thing and then he went out, you know, started his own firm. Um, so I’m listening to your story going Yeah. And Iman, and I remember going to that firm and there was, he was the only family attorney. You walk in, you got all these corporate attorneys and a room full of paralegals and and whatnot, and he was sort of, they sort of just stuck him in this office to sort of start growing it.

Rebecca Palmer (05:54):
Yeah. It’s interesting because I was really fortunate, like, for example, and I knew, uh, my, my firm, my big firm was primarily real estate. Okay. And so

Matthew Brickman (06:03):
When the, his, his dealt with foreclosure, so

Rebecca Palmer (06:05):
Oh, that’s interesting. Yeah. That’s interesting. But well, it, it, for this firm, it was more corporate, you know, uh, real estate and when the recession hit, um, that, that was a wonderful time for me. Yeah. Because my, my business was going great. Um, and when I say wonderful time, a lot of people were hurting, but not my business. It wasn’t. And, uh, you know, so that was, I really made kind of mark. And then I had some really notable cases, um, that, that I was fortunate enough to handle. Yeah. So had a lot of work and I’m a mediator too. Yeah. Which I agree with everything you said I can relate with. Yeah. Mediation is, is my favorite thing. Yeah. I mean, it’s just kind of similar to what I described as divorce. Yeah. You go in as an independent person, but in one day Yeah. You can potentially resolve all the issues.

Matthew Brickman (07:00):
Yeah. Well, and, and it’s interesting what you said about, you know, meeting people and becoming friends or having relationships, getting to walk through with them. It’s funny cuz a lot of the attorneys I work with, like I said, they, they start out like in the public defender’s office, state attorney’s office, whatnot. And then they, you know, a lot of ’em and that I work with now are family attorneys. And they joke and they say, you know, the difference between family law and criminal law is criminal law. You meet really bad people on their best behavior, family law. You meet really good people on their worst behavior. And just like you said though, I mean, I’ve, I’ve met some people that are really nice people and we become friends even as a media, like we’ve become friends and, and you know, some really great stories about, like you said, even just being able to be there and, you know, I’ve done this like mediations for them later in life that okay, maybe they need a modification or okay.

Matthew Brickman (07:53):
That, that did, you know, it was a paternity matter. And then now they’re married and now they’re getting divorced. They’re like, you were so good the first time around. And there’s a relationship, there’s a trust level there. And being able to walk through and see their kids grow and see the successes. I mean, it it, I mean I love ju just like you said, I mean, yeah, the recessions and everything is bad. The worst the world gets, the busier we get. But we’re there. I mean like, like I look at divorces. We’re not destroying anything. We are actually reorganizing something into something that can be positive and good. And to have a hand in that. It’s so rewarding.

Rebecca Palmer (08:34):
It really is. It really is. You know, one thing you just mentioned, remind me, one of my first favorite class, he, he is been a client for many, many years. So I did his, uh, postnuptial agreement, which is as you know, like a prenup, but you just entered it after

Matthew Brickman (08:49):
Marriage. We just did a, we just did an episode on Postnuptial, uh, a couple of weeks ago.

Rebecca Palmer (08:54):
A lot of people, people don’t know. Well, so that’s good. I’m glad you did that. Yeah. So, um, so I did his postnup, then I did his divorce, then I did his prenup

Matthew Brickman (09:05):
<laugh>. That’s awesome.

Rebecca Palmer (09:06):
And then my father, who, who was a wonderful minister, did his wedding because he got to know my family. Okay,

Matthew Brickman (09:13):
Wait. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Say that again. Wait, wait. Say that again.

Rebecca Palmer (09:16):
So, so, okay. So

Matthew Brickman (09:17):
Your father,

Rebecca Palmer (09:18):
My father did my client’s wedding.

Matthew Brickman (09:21):
And your father is a minister?

Rebecca Palmer (09:23):
Was a

Matthew Brickman (09:23):
Minister, yeah. So is mine.

Rebecca Palmer (09:25):
Oh,

Matthew Brickman (09:25):
Are you serious? Yes, <laugh>.

Rebecca Palmer (09:28):
Wow. What denomination?

Matthew Brickman (09:29):
Non-denominational he was. So yeah, my father in a side note, I think this is probably in some episode going back whatnot. Uh, but yeah, so my father was, uh, was raised Jewish, was in rabbinical school to become a rabbi. Ended up converting to Christianity, became a, a Southern Baptist minister, and then left the Southern Baptist Convention and went non-denominational. But I was bar mitzvah in a Southern Baptist church, which was crazy. Um, and now, and so now my parents, well, for the past 10 years they have been missionaries in Africa. Uh, and they started a church that they, they started a church in Africa. They’re running, uh, an orphanage in Africa. Um, and then he also is a trainer with Myers Briggs and does amazing man. Yeah. So, but yeah, so, so I

Rebecca Palmer (10:29):
Now would’ve loved him.

Matthew Brickman (10:31):
But, but what what’s interesting is like, and, and I, I believe I, I really believe Rebecca, that that just like with you, like having that, that as an upbringing, like, like it as a background for us, really helps us in the profession that we’re in, dealing with people, dealing with crisis, dealing with emotions. I think it really does help and play in

Rebecca Palmer (10:54):
I agree a hundred percent. And first of all, your father’s been fascinating. And second, I definitely agree with that comment. In fact, I was asked by one reporter, you know, why’d you become a family lawyer? I was thinking about it and I, I basically said, because I’m a preacher’s kid, you know, <laugh>, I was like, you know,

Matthew Brickman (11:12):
I got divorced. Oh. And I was the first of a, of multiple generations. Like, we didn’t have like, like I had nobody to call in my family going, Hey, how do you get divorced? Like, my parents were marriage counselors and my dad was a pastor. Like, how do you get divorced? There’s no

Rebecca Palmer (11:29):
What my dad, my dad used to say, um, that they should make it harder to get married and easier to get divorced. Yes.

Matthew Brickman (11:39):
Like,

Rebecca Palmer (11:39):
You know, the divorce steps to get married and, and, and make it easier. Cause it’s so painful is very painful.

Matthew Brickman (11:45):
Well, and my dad does, my dad does a lot of premarital, like premarital counseling. Yeah. And it, it’s interesting because we, we’ve had some conversations. He’s like, like, okay. So I, I will tell you, neither of my current wife, nor my ex-wife could make it past session two of his premarital counseling.

Rebecca Palmer (12:05):
Whoa.

Matthew Brickman (12:05):
Like, like session two. Like my, my brother and his wife made it through and they’ve been married forever and ever and ever. And my dad says that most people that go through his counseling actually discover they’re not supposed to get married. And they call it off. Like, and, and just like you said, like it makes it harder because you’re really doing the work that you and I do on the backend as mediators. Like, okay, let’s look hindsight and see all the mistakes and see, so maybe you don’t repeat that. Well, he’s honing into that going, okay, what are your beliefs about children one day? What are your beliefs about finances? What are your beliefs about this? Wait a second, you guys aren’t even on the same page. Maybe you shouldn’t. And like with my ex and I we’re, we, we after session too, we’re like, you know what? You just don’t get it. You’re a different generation. He’s like, yeah, okay. Good luck with you on that one. And here we are, <laugh>, just like you said, it make it harder to get divorced or it’s harder to get married, do all the heavy lifting on the front end and then you and I don’t have to do it on the back end.

Rebecca Palmer (13:09):
It’s true. I I, I’ve done several weddings. It’s, it’s such a

Matthew Brickman (13:13):
Blessing. I’ve got a couple, I don’t like doing them. Divorce is, divorce is so much easier. <laugh>, I’m like, there’s so much pressure in a marriage. I’m like, do I say the right thing? And then what do you write? Okay, so let me ask you this. I I, I made a mistake the first I’ve done th I think three weddings. The first wedding I made a huge mistake.

Rebecca Palmer (13:32):
What’d you do

Matthew Brickman (13:33):
On their am marriage certificate? It says name Matthew Brickman, occupation, divorce mediator, <laugh>. That’s not what you should probably put on somebody’s marriage certificate. Right. And so, I don’t know, I just, the pressure of doings, making sure everything’s right, especially in my, in the back of my head going 50% ended divorce. I hope you guys can make it <laugh>. Like, uh, like I, I dunno, in a way Rebecca almost felt like a fraud.

Rebecca Palmer (14:01):
<laugh>. Oh no, not at all.

Matthew Brickman (14:03):
So I’m like, oh, like for better or worse, do you really? Yeah. Whatever. <laugh>. I dunno.

Rebecca Palmer (14:11):
So, so I like, like your dad, but probably not is intensified. I require that we have meetings ahead of time. Okay. Same thing. And I ask them, you know, do you want kids? Or how are you gonna handle your bank account? You know, all that stuff. That’s cool. I do the same thing basically. Cause that, you know, harder to get married, easier to get divorced. Yeah. It’s so hard. And, uh, it, it, it, I find it very rewarding. Um, I’ve only done it for very, very close people to me and, you know, so I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t do it just for someone random.

Matthew Brickman (14:45):
I did. And the first one I did was random. It was so, so it was a client that I did her divorce and her and I became really good friends and her sister was getting married, but they had, but her and her husband had already divorced like once or twice. And nobody was coming. Nobody like, even the family, they’re like, we’re not doing this again. And they couldn’t find anybody. And so she calls me and she goes, Matthew, you at my sister’s wedding, right? And I’m like, I guess so I’m a notary. Like sure. But, but it was because like nobody else would.

Rebecca Palmer (15:24):
That’s interesting. So are they still together?

Matthew Brickman (15:27):
Yeah. Yeah. Well,

Rebecca Palmer (15:29):
And I

Matthew Brickman (15:29):
Know, I know. So guests, I mean, and that was, it was years ago. Um, and then I had a really, really, really great friend. And she’s like, I really, really want you to do it. You know, we’ve, you know, her, her and my kids were, you know, basically grew up together, went to school together. And I’m like, okay. Um, and I, and, and, and I love her and her husband’s cool. They just had a baby. And so

Rebecca Palmer (15:54):
That’s awesome. That’s awesome.

Matthew Brickman (15:56):
So that was a good, so, so it sounds like, it sounds like, you know, so, so you’re really honing in on not just the divorce side, but also the front side. But so this generation, so you know, you and I are like the Gen Xers. Um, so then like Gen Y. So for those listeners that aren’t, that don’t know. Okay. So Gen Y is also dubbed as the millennial generation. Um, those are people that have been born that, that were born between 1980 and 1994. So at the time of recording this podcast, that means that these, these children that were born, that are gen wires this year are turning either some, somewhere between 29 to 43. And then we’ve got the Gen Zers, which were, which are like my kids that were born in 95 to oh nine. So that means this year they’re turning 14 to 28. So I guess my question is, so for the Gen y millennials and the Gen Zers, because basically you’re talking like the 20 something, 20 to 30 somethings, um, what do you see as a trend? I mean, I, I see trends as a mediator, but what do you see as a trend with the millennial generation, the Gin Zers, sort of, are they bucking the system for marriage? Are they trying to carve their own way? Like what do you see as, and you had mentioned too, you’re doing prenuptial agreements too. Like what do you see?

Rebecca Palmer (17:26):
They’re definitely bucking the system. Not, not only personally, but professional. Okay. You know, you know, I mean, I think covid changed things, having people work from home. And that generation wanted to work from home and change things. And like I was raised and brought up as a Gen Xer, and in my mentors, you joined the firm, you stayed there and you died or retired,

Matthew Brickman (17:48):
You retired at 65, 78, you’re done. Like you’re

Rebecca Palmer (17:52):
Done. There you go. And

Matthew Brickman (17:53):
They say, they actually say, Rebecca, that the average, like these days, the average person will have six totally non-related careers.

Rebecca Palmer (18:03):
Isn’t that interesting?

Matthew Brickman (18:05):
Thanks. Like non-related. That’s not like, that’s not like you going, all right, I’m at a big firm and now I’m gonna go to, or actually, okay, I’m gonna the state attorney’s office, then I’m gonna go to a big firm, then I’m gonna go to small. No, that’s like, I am I an attorney and now I’m a dog walker, and then I’m a hairdresser, and then I’m a, an Uber driver. Like, but they say six totally non-related jobs. So I don’t know. That’s interesting. I,

Rebecca Palmer (18:31):
I’d be like, I like to see the statistics. That’s, that’s that, that’s really interesting. I, I, I would, I would guess three. But I have a, a dear friend, um, that I used to work with, and I think he’s on his six actually now. You say that. Well,

Matthew Brickman (18:44):
And, and professionally and personally. So if they’re on six jobs, if we go to job related, they’re six. To me, that does not say, Ooh, they’re creative. Look at ’em. That says lack of commitment. Yes. But I think that spills over then into relational. Correct.

Rebecca Palmer (19:00):
It, it can. Yeah. Um, you know, I think divorce has become so prevalent. Uh, interesting fact about me, Matthew, is when I grew up, I honestly don’t remember ever knowing anybody who was

Matthew Brickman (19:14):
Divorced. I don’t think I did either

Rebecca Palmer (19:17):
Until I went to college. Yeah. And I kinda remember going, wow, this is, this is interesting. And then my wonderful, awesome, cool, funny, brilliant, um, and unfortunately deceased brother, uh, he was married to fantastic woman. She’s still a dear friend of mine. And they got a divorce and I was so confused. Yeah. <laugh>. But it actually helped me launch my career. Ok. Cause I realized that’s not a failure. You know, that’s, that, that is, that’s you need a different path.

Matthew Brickman (19:48):
I tell you, I’ll tell you from a man’s point of view. Okay. Yes. From a male point of view. Um, and I’ve done all of ’em. So I can say, all right, great. I’ve checked all those boxes. So, um, when I was in my twenties, I ended up having to file bankruptcy. I felt like a failure with money. Okay. And then, um, in my late twenties, then I got divorced. I felt like a failure in relationship. Okay. Wow. In between the, and, and then in my early thirties, I had a foreclosure then on my great, I can’t even provide a home for my kids. I felt like a failure yet again. And I think it was because again, just like we’re talking like Gen Xers, like those were foreign. Like I didn’t know people that got divorced. I didn’t know people that filed bankruptcy. I didn’t foreclosure.

Matthew Brickman (20:46):
What does does that mean? Right. But as a man, I guess going, wow, I can’t handle my finances. I don’t know how to deal with relationships and I can’t even provide for my family. And maybe it’s an ego thing. And, and, and I do run into those as a mediator and, and family law where the men are just beating themselves up going, oh, where is, where’s, where’s the woman’s? Like, so we’ll just try it again. <laugh>. We’ll just try it again. And the man though, I think it’s just, I think it’s just a crush to the ego going, um, I don’t know. It’s, it’s, it’s, you know, that’s sort of what I’ve seen. But, you know, so it’s interesting now. Yeah. But

Rebecca Palmer (21:29):
By the way, you’re definitely not a failure. No,

Matthew Brickman (21:31):
No, no, no, no. I mean, I got over that, you know, therapy helped me get over that. I was like, it,

Rebecca Palmer (21:35):
I think it’s good for those you who are listening to this, you know, those things really aren’t failures. Transitions.

Matthew Brickman (21:42):
Absolutely.

Rebecca Palmer (21:43):
You know,

Matthew Brickman (21:44):
Doesn’t kill you, makes you stronger.

Rebecca Palmer (21:47):
I great. They did. True. You know, and um, I remember this is such a stupid story. You can definitely edit this one out. But anyway, I, I remember, um, nowadays, uh, kids that are cheerleaders, you know, start when they’re like two. But so my junior year in high school I thought, I’m gonna go out for cheering. I never done it do gymnastics. I’m like, I’m gonna go try. So I tried. I didn’t make it. I was crushed. Now looking back, it’s silly. I wasn’t trained. I didn’t know how to do it. Yeah. And, um, had the best year, got in, you know, musicals, a bunch of plays, you know, played tennis track, you know, did a ton of other stuff. My senior said year, I’m like, darn it, I’m gonna try it again. <laugh>. So I went out again and I got it. That’s awesome. Cheerleader. And, uh, I made kill me, but it made me, you know, was I failure? No, it was a fantastic year, but one did one more time. Got in and had a blast. Yeah. I was the worst cheerleader ever. I mean, I couldn’t You

Matthew Brickman (22:59):
Have fun.

Rebecca Palmer (23:00):
Oh, I had a blast. Yeah, I would, I made up this little dance, I call it the happy dance and to wrap up the, the crowd. And quite frankly, I was doing it cuz I couldn’t do what the are doing. <laugh>, it became my thing, my happy dance. So, you know, cause they’re like, I know how to do that. <laugh>. That’s awesome. So yeah, Kelly makes a failure. But you know, back to, you know, the younger Yeah.

Matthew Brickman (23:26):
That these younger people are doing.

Rebecca Palmer (23:28):
Another trend is, um, me, I’ll tell about me then the trends. Me, I had a weird rule. Thank God I had a rule. I made it up when I was a kid and I stuck to it.

Matthew Brickman (23:41):
Can’t wait.

Rebecca Palmer (23:42):
I would not get married until I, okay. That was, that was my rule. Um, I definitely would’ve been divorced at least once had I not had that rule. Maybe twice. Where

Matthew Brickman (23:54):
Did it come

Rebecca Palmer (23:54):
From? My brain. I don’t know.

Matthew Brickman (23:56):
That was just, that was just a choice. Like that you weren’t told, Hey, you should marry till 30. Or that was something you decided

Rebecca Palmer (24:04):
On poor kids and they wanna change, change that. Because you know, my parents had me older and that, that was tough cause I had to care for them, you know? Um, love them, loved them. They’re both deceased, but love, love, love them. But it was tough. I was, I was truly sandwich generation. Yeah. And so my kids like we were gonna reverse. That was rough watching that. But um, so that was my personal role. Okay. A trend now is questioning marriage. Because if you think about it, you and I growing up didn’t know any people divorced our kids. They know so much. Divorce.

Matthew Brickman (24:39):
Do you know, do you know the latest statistics?

Rebecca Palmer (24:42):
No. Okay.

Matthew Brickman (24:43):
So

Rebecca Palmer (24:44):
Statistics

 

Matthew Brickman:
Occasionally Sydney and I will be releasing Q & A bonus episodes where we will answer questions and give you a personal shout out.

Sydney Mitchell:
If you have a comment or question regarding anything that we discuss, email us at info@ichatmediation.com that’s info@ichatmediation.com and stay tuned to hear your shout out and have your question answered here on the show.

Matthew Brickman:

For more information about my services or to schedule your mediation with me, either in person or using my iChatMediation Virtual Platform built by Cisco Communications. Visit me online at www.iMediateInc.com. Call me at 561-262-9121, Toll-Free at 877-822-1479 or email me at MBrickman@iChatMediation.com.