3. Gender Roles: What are they for Men and Women today?

Sydney Mitchell:

Hi. My name is Sydney Mitchell.

Matthew Brickman:

Hi, I’m Matthew Brickman, Florida Supreme court mediator. Welcome to the Mediate This! Podcast where we discuss everything mediation and conflict resolution.

Sydney Mitchell:
Welcome to this episode of Mediate This! In each of our episodes we’re continuing to discuss that Matthew, you help people who are experiencing fear and chaos in their homes or in their families, help them to find hope and peace, saving them lots of money and helping them to create a new tone so they could continue to live a life with limited conflict. And today I’m really excited to dig a little bit deeper into this as we discuss the tone of the man and the woman in the home and how mediation can set an entirely new tone and impact generations to come. And before we get started, I just want to ask you this question to kind of frame our conversation for today. Um, Matthew, what do you believe that the tone is for men and for women in the home and how does that impact other family members?

Matthew Brickman:
So I believe that the, uh, the man’s role and, and, and I’ll just preface this with, I’m just the messenger. Uh, this is what I’ve learned in my own life. Um, and I’ve learned doing, you know, thousands of mediations is I believe that the sun rises and sets with the tone that demands sets. So, um, you know, does the wife have a role to play? Yes, the wife has a role to play, but I think that it is first set by the tone that the man set. So, you know, the man sets it and then the wife either responds or reacts to it. And how that goes down will then create the overall tone that will affect the children as well as their own relationship.

Sydney Mitchell:
Sure. So what would you say about a family that doesn’t have a father in the home?

Matthew Brickman:
So, you know, we’ve got 40 years of empirical data showing the effects of a fatherless home. I mean, it’s all over the place, we know what happens. And so, you know, if there’s not a father in the home, then, you know, it really is up to the mom to then be the one who is setting that tone. Now, you know, I don’t believe that she’s created to do it now. Can she? Absolutely. But is it the father’s job? Yes, it’s actually the father’s job. And so, you know, there are many, many, many women out there that are having to play both roles, both mom and dad. Um, and you know, for me, we’ve talked about in past episodes and it’s in my book, you know, I had to play both roles for the most part as well with my kids. Um, but you know, generally I believe that, you know, you know, the man sets the tone, the woman will either respond or react to that tone and then that will create an overall atmosphere for that home.

Sydney Mitchell:
Sure. Yeah. I can agree with you on that, Matthew, I think, you know, the, the clear role, and again, you know, our listeners may have varying opinions on this based on, you know, their upbringing, you know, whether they agree more with traditional gender roles or more contemporary gender roles, which as you’ve mentioned before, you know, things are just changing. I mean, they’re really changing how, how homes are operating nowadays. And so, um, anyway, just, just throwing that out there, but yeah, I mean, I agree with you that, you know, the man is the leader of the home. Um, you know, the man ought to be, you know, at least in my opinion, again, you know, our listeners may have different varying opinions, but this is just kind of the, the construct from which we are having a conversation today. Um, you know, that the man is

Matthew Brickman:
well and you actually came from a home of divorce. So you had different tones by different people. And I came from a home where my parents are still together. So it was the same people setting that tone. So, you know, for you, you know, and I think, you know, these days, you know, there’s 40% of the children being born into homes that mom and dad were never married. And so that leaves 60% of the kids being built, born into an intact family, but then 50% of the marriages I’ve been divorced. So you figure like 70% of the children end up, like you were, then you’ve got multiple people setting tones. How that for you having multiple people setting tones,

Sydney Mitchell:
that’s, it’s really great. Great question. Because, um, so to give some context to our listeners, I have had, most of my parents were divorced at a very young age. I lived on a parenting plan from the time I was three for my entire life until I graduated high school and started college. So, um, you know, and even after that, you know, my parents had, you know, more divorces in the family. So I’m, I’m, I’ve had three or four different with, you know, three or four different father figures in my home and, and varying, you know, brothers and sisters and those marriages. And so, you know, I can definitely definitely speak to them and say, yeah, you know, the man does, does have a, um, you know, uh, determining role in, in the atmosphere of the home, whether it be regarding communication or regarding responsibilities.

Sydney Mitchell:
Um, I do agree with you, you know, that the man is, you know, is created to be that ultimate leader. However, through my experience, I really have come to learn, you know, that a, that a husband and for a male and female can make the decision together to determine the tone together. Right. You know, Matthew, we talk about, you know, through the mediation process, your job is to empower people, you know, that you’re mediating, uh, you know, their situations, you’re empowering them to take control of their own lives. And I think in the same way, a husband and a wife can, you know, through mutual agreement take control of the tone together mutually. Um, now yes. You know, as you mentioned this, the man, you know, is he leading the charge? Yes. And is it the wife’s responsibility to, you know, to be a part of that and through support and maybe through challenging and, and XYZ, uh, follow that. Yes. But, but I do think that there is, um, there’s responsibility on both ends and the cooperation with which a man and woman are willing to work with. Um, I think that, that, you know, affects the tone as well.

Matthew Brickman:
Yeah. Yeah. That means that that’ll determine the overall atmosphere of that tone, you know, you know, um, I’ll tell you, tell you a story about my life. So, um, when I got divorced, I was just, I was extremely angry. I mean, I was just a very, very angry individual. Um, had very short fuses, just angry at life. I was just very upset. So one of the, one of the things I finally did, um, I was, you know, became self reflective. And so I took the court ordered anger management course. Have you ever taken anger management Sydney?

Sydney Mitchell:
I have not. I’m so fascinated to hear about it.

Matthew Brickman:
Yeah. So it was an L so I actually voluntarily took the, the court ordered anger management course, 11 voluntarily. Um, and it was eye opening. It was incredible. Um, I learned so much about myself. I learned what my buttons were. Um, but one of the most important concepts that I learned from that was the difference between responding and reacting. And, you know, when we talk about the tone, um, you know, I look back and, you know, the tone that I set, you know, leading my family and, you know, as a leader, you can lead in two different ways. You can lead through dictating, or you can lead through servanthood and example. Um, when I was married, I, for the most part led through dictatorship, I always barked orders. I was in charge. I had the power you’re going to submit. I mean, who wants to be in that type of a marriage?

Matthew Brickman:
Um, and so, you know, that’s, and so that’s how I led, but guess what? I didn’t have a wife who was going to respond to that dictatorship. I had a wife who ended up reacting to that dictatorship. And so the tone that I set then caused her to react, not respond. And what I learned in anger management was the difference between the two. So let me, let me just break this down for you. So the easiest way to explain this is, is when you talk about a boxer, a trained fighter versus somebody who just likes to scrap in the neighborhood in a dark alley with a bunch of people, and, you know, we’ll call it street fighter. So, you know, a boxer after a fight. I, you know, I don’t know if you’d ever hear a boxer go, you know what? I should’ve, would’ve, could’ve done because they’re trained, they’re trained to think, and then do.

Matthew Brickman:
Now it can be split second. I mean, split second, they see at fist coming towards them, they know exactly where to go because they’re trained. So they’re responding a street fighter after a street fight. You always hear shoulda, woulda could I should have done this. I should’ve done that. Usually it’s the loser who’s going to shoulda, woulda, coulda. Um, but it’s because they weren’t trained. They simply did. And then they thought, Hmm. And so, you know, with that tone, I was leading through dictatorship. And so she was simply reacting and it wasn’t until the end of my marriage. And there, there was one night that, um, you know, I worked multiple jobs and one night where I came home late and I walk in and there she is laying on the couch with the two kids watching a TV. And it wasn’t even just TV.

Matthew Brickman:
She was watching E you know, entertainment, television, and was watching talk soup, you know, where they highlight all of the daily talk shows. And so I sat down there for a moment and she was like, Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh, this was a great episode here. Watch, watch. And then the next one. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. It was a great episode. Watch, watch. I’m going. Oh my gosh. Yeah. All she did was watch talk shows. And now she’s watching a show about the talk shows. I’m like, Oh my gosh. So, you know, dishes are piled up clothes and laundry is everywhere. And she’s laying there with the kids watching talk soup, wanting to highlight. And tell me about each of the talk shows I’m looking around going, I’m hungry. Did you cook anything? And so I get up and I walk over and there’s, you know, I open up the microwave, not that the microwave, nothing on the stove, nothing, the refrigerator dishes piled high.

Matthew Brickman:
And typically Sydney, my response was what in the world did you do all day? Like, I’m hungry. Like, did you not cook me dinner? Like just right. It’s like, you know, and, and it’s, it’s like, I’m walking in and I’m Fred Flintstone. Right. So that was my typical response. And of course that would lead her to then react. And then tell me about all she did. And then she’s looking for validation. I’m looking for validation. And now, you know, going back to remember last, last episode, we’re talking about, you know, feeling disrespected or you remember the four days. Well, that was, that would always lead us to the forties. So this particular night, um, I looked everywhere, didn’t find anything. And I was just like, you know what, whatever didn’t say anything, but instead of asking her, what did you do all day? Why didn’t you do the dishes?

Matthew Brickman:
Why did you did the laundry? I walked over to the sink and I just started doing dishes. I just started doing dishes in all diet, not a minute or two. Like you hear a couple of dishes. And she was up off the couch in the kitchen with me. And so what are you doing here? I’ll do that. And I stood there for a second going, wow, this is pretty incredible and realized in that moment that I didn’t have to tell her, I just had to show her. And that’s the difference between leading through dictator and servanthood and created a new tone and creating a new atmosphere. And so, so as she’s doing the dishes, I, you know, I asked her, I said, did you and the kids eat? And she’s like, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And I said, well, did Jack make anything for me?

Matthew Brickman:
You know, she’s like, well, no. And so I asked her, usually I was barking orders at her or yelling at her or belittling her. But on this particular day, I actually asked her, I said, well, when your parents were married, did your mom ever cook for your dad? And she’s like, eventually I was like, what do you mean eventually? Like, and she said, she said, well, my dad asked if my mom would cook. And my mom said, sure, she started cooking. I said, but she didn’t do that before. She’s like, well, no. Now I grew up in a family where my mom always just cooked. Like, that’s what she did. My dad never had to ask. It just was. And so I said to her, I said, well, could I get dinner sometimes she’s like, sure. And I was like, and you know, and she started cooking.

Matthew Brickman:
I was like, it’s that easy? Huh. But, you know, I had to change my tone that I had with her. And I also had to change how I was leading the family. And then it changed her risk, her reaction into a response. And that was a very eye opening day. Unfortunately, all the years of damage were already done and we ended up getting divorced. And then I, like I told you, I took the anger management and then that opened my eyes to what I realized that night. I just couldn’t like put words to it, like response react. But it was after I took that, it was explained going, Oh, and so, you know, that’s what I try to help people do and learn in mediation. And when I’m talking to them and they’re prepping for negotiations and, you know, give people that knowledge, you know, my job is to empower them so that they can set a new tone because so many times in mediation, people come in and, you know, they are full of fear and they’re in the middle of chaos.

Matthew Brickman:
Well, you know, trying to give them that hope and peace that, you know, I talk about that that’s my job. So much of that is just giving them words to their feelings of, okay, you need to lead through servanthood, not through dictatorship. You need to set a tone so that then she will either re you know, she will respond instead of react. And so then we do exercises in mediation as we’re mediating that help the party start to recognize the words they’re using and start to recognize, okay, if I say this a certain way, I’m going to get a reaction, not a response.

Sydney Mitchell:
Right. And how did, so you kind of laid out for us how, you know, through, instead of leading through dictatorship, leading with servant hood, you know, change, maybe the tone of your relationship with your wife, but your wife at the time, um, what impact did that have on your kids? And did you keep up this attitude of servanthood to lead your family? And if you did, what changes did you see? Or if you didn’t, what do you wish you’d done differently?

Matthew Brickman:
Okay. So from that day forward, it has been the forefront of my mind. Absolutely. I mean, from that day forward, um, it is, it is the driving force in my relationships. So with my, with my new wife, um, it’s funny. I, I I’ve come up with this term or I heard this term. I’m not going to take credit for it. Cause I probably heard it somewhere, read it. I don’t know, but at the moment it’s mine, but I always, you know, I always tell her, you know what, I’m looking for pockets of honor. I’m looking for pockets of honor, because I want to honor her. And every single thing I do and everything I say. And so I’m always looking at ways that I can serve her ways, that I can help her ways, that I can encourage her, that all show her honor and worth.

Matthew Brickman:
And, and I’ll tell you, it is like if you compare the two relationships it’s night and day, like absolutely night and day, uh, because in one relationship, um, I was a dictator and this one, I lead through example and the other one, she was constantly reacting and my new one she’s constantly responding and it’s a very healthy place to live. It’s a place of peace. We live in peace and enjoyment. I mean, it’s just so quiet and fun, and it’s just wonderful, but also, you know, with my daughter, you know, you know, having, having a little girl at the time when we were getting divorced, you know, I realized that the tone that I was setting for my daughter was bad. You know, I was choosing, I was setting a tone of how she should find a husband, like find someone who yells and is abusive and a dictator.

Matthew Brickman:
And, and like, that’s just bad, like bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. Um, and you know, for my son, I was setting a horrible tone for him saying, Hey, look, look, buddy, this is how you can treat women. Like, yeah, you can bark orders and you can be a dictator and yeah. You know, that’s just wrong. And so, you know, with my daughter’s, you know, she’s, she’s about to get married in a couple of weeks and she has a phenomenal, phenomenal fiance and future husband. And I’ve got a great son-in-law and, um, and, and, and yeah, you know, he is very gentle. He, he leads through example, like the three years they’ve been dating it’s through servanthood in gentleness and looking for honor. Um, and my son, um, you know, I noticed that, you know, my son has had issues with relationships. Um, you know, when I would see a lot of me and him when I was his age. And so yeah, it’s in the forefront of me trying to help guide him so that he doesn’t make the same, you know, global issues that, that I did.

Sydney Mitchell:
Sure. And how would you say overall mediation helps to set the new tone? You know, we’ve discussed the difference between responding and reacting, but what, what, where does the mediation process come into play here?

Matthew Brickman:
So, so the process comes into play because mediation, what I’ve termed a controlled burn. So, you know, like, you know, you have a forest and the firefighters go out there, they set a perimeter and they actually torch it. They actually burn it to the ground. That’s what mediation is. It’s a place where we have to deal with the past. The past is what got them to the dysfunctional place they’re at. And so mediation is a place where we burn down the old, you know, sometimes I joke with the clients and I say, you know what? You’ve got the gasoline, I’ve got the match, let’s burn this baby down because it’s a controlled burn. We’re going to deal with all of the issues, the emotional and the psychological issues, underlying their conflict, so that we can then burn all the stuff down. So we’ve got a new place to cultivate, so we can set a new tone and, you know, sometimes, you know, you know, the parties get so caught up in their own conflict and they’re just going back and forth. And one of, one of the ways that I’ve learned to sort of gain control of the situation to really open their eyes to what’s important when they start just getting lost in their own conflict is to do this. So play along with me Sydney. So Sydney you’ve got grandparents, right? Yes, sir. Okay. Good. And your grandparents had either your mom or your dad, correct. And your parents are probably a lot like your grandparents, right?

Matthew Brickman:
Yeah. Good, good, and bad things, right? Yeah. So then your parents of course had you, and I’m sure that you have a lot of the traits of both your parents as well. Right. Absolutely good and bad. Right. So at that point in mediation, I actually tell the parties, you know, with all due respect, you know, this process, mediation, what you guys are going through has nothing to do with you. And that usually is an eye opening thing because they’re in mediation to get divorced, set up a paternity action deal with the lawsuit, you know, whatever it is and they’re, and they, and they usually look at me with a puzzled look like, what do you mean? What do you mean? It’s not about me? And I tell him, I say, look, you know, do not think that your kids aren’t watching you do not think that your decisions and the tone that you’re setting is not affecting them.

Matthew Brickman:
Because if, if you’re a lot, like your parents and your parents are a lot, like your grandparents that guess what your kids are going to be a lot like you and whatever tone you’re setting is going to impact your unborn grandchildren. And so when I approach mediation, Sydney, I approach it with such a heavy weight that I’m not there just to help the parties get through a parenting plan and set it up where they’re setting a tone for people that aren’t even on this planet yet. And that’s how serious I take this, this process of my calling. And this job is when we set that tone, it’s important that through the agreements that we set and through the conversation that we have, that we start to set a new tone, so that mom and dad co-parent so they can achieve peace so that they can protect each other, um, or protect themselves from each other and protect the kids from, you know, adult conversations, from the reaction to the responses, and also be able to model for their children, how their daughter needs to be seeking a future husband, how their son needs to be treating women and, you know, setting a new tone is so, so important.

Sydney Mitchell:
Right? Well, I think there’s so much to this that not a lot of people realize, you know, because there’s so many emotionally charged, you know, arguments, disagreements, things that you’re battling in the midst of a challenging marriage or relationship or, or family life that blind you, you know, to the real impact that you’re having. I mean, I can speak from my own experience. You know, I grew up, you know, as I mentioned with, um, parents who were divorced and, and gosh, in, in, I mean, I was three, but when they got married, so I don’t remember life when they were together. Um, but in their new marriages, you know, I can, I can speak, you know, that there’s just so many situations that I can remember both good and bad, um, that I look back on and I had to choose who I was going to be in that moment, you know, um, who, who I wanted to beat because of what was happening in my home, you know, and I know that I carry several personality traits of both my mom and my dad, like you said, um, both, whether it be good or bad.

Sydney Mitchell:
And, and I think there’s just a lot that, that plays into

Sydney Mitchell:
you know

Sydney Mitchell:
a lot of factors that play into, you know, a young child developing and, you know, like you said, they’re always watching. And, and I just think that there’s so many things that we pick up without even realizing it. And so even now, you know, whether it’s work or in my friendships or in, you know, whatever relationships or situations I find myself, you know, I’ll say something or do something and in reflection, I’m looking back thinking, Oh my gosh, did I just say that though? I do that. And I’m like,

Matthew Brickman:
Did I just say that out loud?

Sydney Mitchell:
And I’m like, I want to dig at this for a second. You know, where does this come from in me? Why am I feeling this way? You know, it, a lot of times I can tie it back to while I experienced this as a child, you know, this happened a lot in my home. This didn’t happen in my home. You know, I experienced this level of consistency or inconsistency in certain things. And so, you know, as I mentioned, I think there are just so many factors that, you know, until you take the time to really sit and reflect on this truth. And I love that you shared this today, and I love that you share that with so many of the couples that you mediate with, because it really just puts things in a proper perspective. You know, that it isn’t all about you. It’s about your children and your children’s children.

Sydney Mitchell:
And, you know, I look back in my family, my parents were divorced, my parents’ parents were divorced, and I want that to stop with me. And so, gosh, there’s just so much that you learn looking back to your upbringing and gamma. I mean, if you’re a parent out there listening, I mean, don’t think that your children aren’t catching on, you know, whether it’s passive, aggressiveness that you think isn’t obvious or, you know, arguments, you know, that you’re having behind closed doors. I mean, it all, it all plays a part in this tone that we’re talking about. And so I just, I love, I love that you share that with your clients, Matthew,

Matthew Brickman:
Occasionally Sydney, and I will be releasing Q&A bonus episodes where we will answer your questions and give you a personal shout out.

Sydney Mitchell:
If you have a comment or question regarding anything that we discuss, email us at info@ichatmediation.com that’s info@ichatmediation.com and stay tuned to hear your shout out and have your question answered here on the show.